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20-12-2016, 10:35 PM
(This post was last modified: 20-12-2016, 10:41 PM by chialc88.)
Happy investing as this definitely be a rewarding journey to your financial freedom.
I dream/found out very early part of my career that in order to retire,
I need my $$$ to work harder than me.
Dream on:
One characteristics of valuebuddies is we prefers reading than going for investment courses.
So, "The Intelligent Investor" written by Benjamin Graham is definitely a must read.
It's good that you're reading the book slowly page by page.
To be fair, not many valuebuddies able to read thru the whole book.
Imagine my joy when I discover (and introduced) a 100 pages summary in this
post in vb.com it's a NLB book too.
If you can read the 100 pages summary, you would end up to be better read
than most valuebuddies. 
Now, you asked:
If our dear valuebuddies do not *dig deep* into "The Intelligent Investor",
then why did they kept recommending this difficult to read book?
Ans: only 2 chapters must digest or (for some vb burn and drink):
1. chapter 20 - MOS (Margin of Safety) and
2. chapter 8 - Mr Market (and fluctuation)
You can read the essense of these 2 important chapters from this
link
but, I can give it to you quickly.
Chapter 20, MOS is the discount that I get when I *brought* a stock.
The more MOS, the better discount and *value* I got.
A very common question on when do I sell a share?
(and its twin question):
After I brought a stock and its price drop further, do I sell or buy more?
CF gives the model answer using MOS.
aka, if you truely believed that your stock is good and brought it with a MOS.
if the price drop further, you should consider buying more
aka the MOS had become wider (assume no changes to fundamental)
Chapter 8, describe Mr Market who has extreme mood swing.
Everyday, he will ask you to buy or sell shares at a price,
reasonable or not, he don't care.
It is up to you to determine whether his offer meet your MOS target.
Most of the time, we will ignore him.
Once or twice a year, we will pick up some  deal.
And, of course, this is not for the feign hearted.
Only extremely patient valuebuddies will be able to do this diligently.
I, myself, deviated as I have itchy fingers.
I applied the late oldman (Michael Leong) practise and
is trading happily with tikam $$$.
The trick is to know/tell which stock is speculative and which stock is investment.
erh... chapter 1 Investment vs Speculation ( chapter bonus if you read so far)
Another characteristics of our valuebuddies is surprisingly FA+TA.
Very very seldom we see a FA only conversation.
Somehow or rather, TA is fashionable in choosing the entry point of a stock.
Personally, I don't really use TA except the most simplest form
1. MA/EMA and
2. support/resistance
Wish everyone a Merry Christmas and Happy new year.
 Love Compassion
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(20-12-2016, 10:35 PM)chialc88 Wrote: Happy investing as this definitely be a rewarding journey to your financial freedom.
I dream/found out very early part of my career that in order to retire,
I need my $$$ to work harder than me.
Dream on:
One characteristics of valuebuddies is we prefers reading than going for investment courses.
So, "The Intelligent Investor" written by Benjamin Graham is definitely a must read.
It's good that you're reading the book slowly page by page.
To be fair, not many valuebuddies able to read thru the whole book.
Imagine my joy when I discover (and introduced) a 100 pages summary in this
post in vb.com it's a NLB book too.
If you can read the 100 pages summary, you would end up to be better read
than most valuebuddies.
Now, you asked:
If our dear valuebuddies do not *dig deep* into "The Intelligent Investor",
then why did they kept recommending this difficult to read book?
Ans: only 2 chapters must digest or (for some vb burn and drink):
1. chapter 20 - MOS (Margin of Safety) and
2. chapter 8 - Mr Market (and fluctuation)
You can read the essense of these 2 important chapters from this
link
but, I can give it to you quickly.
Chapter 20, MOS is the discount that I get when I *brought* a stock.
The more MOS, the better discount and *value* I got.
A very common question on when do I sell a share?
(and its twin question):
After I brought a stock and its price drop further, do I sell or buy more?
CF gives the model answer using MOS.
aka, if you truely believed that your stock is good and brought it with a MOS.
if the price drop further, you should consider buying more
aka the MOS had become wider (assume no changes to fundamental)
Chapter 8, describe Mr Market who has extreme mood swing.
Everyday, he will ask you to buy or sell shares at a price,
reasonable or not, he don't care.
It is up to you to determine whether his offer meet your MOS target.
Most of the time, we will ignore him.
Once or twice a year, we will pick up some deal.
And, of course, this is not for the feign hearted.
Only extremely patient valuebuddies will be able to do this diligently.
I, myself, deviated as I have itchy fingers.
I applied the late oldman (Michael Leong) practise and
is trading happily with tikam $$$.
The trick is to know/tell which stock is speculative and which stock is investment.
erh... chapter 1 Investment vs Speculation (chapter bonus if you read so far)
Another characteristics of our valuebuddies is surprisingly FA+TA.
Very very seldom we see a FA only conversation.
Somehow or rather, TA is fashionable in choosing the entry point of a stock.
Personally, I don't really use TA except the most simplest form
1. MA/EMA and
2. support/resistance
Wish everyone a Merry Christmas and Happy new year.
Love Compassion
I use a bit of TA too, in a very simplistic manner like what you mentioned.
Mainly just moving averages.
The way I think about TA is simple: if it's a set of rules that market participants follow, and since the rules are fairly predictable, logically, knowing them allows one to then predict the thoughts/sentiment of these market participants who use TA.
It's like Soro's Theory of Reflexivity.
Cause and effect.
For eg. if tomorrow, there is a new TA rule that says that all companies with names starting with "T" have to trade at >PE 100.
We will laugh at that now.
But what if more and more and more of such TA practitioners look at charts and follow these "rules"?
Then when you have a company starting with "T" trading at PE 50, they'd buy because the TA rules says it should be >100.
Then the price will really rise such that it's >100, if you have sufficient of such people following these "rules"
Like I said, reflexivity. This becomes a self reinforcing truth.
I purposely used a ridiculous example to illustrate the concept.
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(20-12-2016, 11:20 PM)TTTI Wrote: (20-12-2016, 10:35 PM)chialc88 Wrote: Happy investing as this definitely be a rewarding journey to your financial freedom.
I dream/found out very early part of my career that in order to retire,
I need my $$$ to work harder than me.
Dream on:
One characteristics of valuebuddies is we prefers reading than going for investment courses.
So, "The Intelligent Investor" written by Benjamin Graham is definitely a must read.
It's good that you're reading the book slowly page by page.
To be fair, not many valuebuddies able to read thru the whole book.
Imagine my joy when I discover (and introduced) a 100 pages summary in this
post in vb.com it's a NLB book too.
If you can read the 100 pages summary, you would end up to be better read
than most valuebuddies.
Now, you asked:
If our dear valuebuddies do not *dig deep* into "The Intelligent Investor",
then why did they kept recommending this difficult to read book?
Ans: only 2 chapters must digest or (for some vb burn and drink):
1. chapter 20 - MOS (Margin of Safety) and
2. chapter 8 - Mr Market (and fluctuation)
You can read the essense of these 2 important chapters from this
link
but, I can give it to you quickly.
Chapter 20, MOS is the discount that I get when I *brought* a stock.
The more MOS, the better discount and *value* I got.
A very common question on when do I sell a share?
(and its twin question):
After I brought a stock and its price drop further, do I sell or buy more?
CF gives the model answer using MOS.
aka, if you truely believed that your stock is good and brought it with a MOS.
if the price drop further, you should consider buying more
aka the MOS had become wider (assume no changes to fundamental)
Chapter 8, describe Mr Market who has extreme mood swing.
Everyday, he will ask you to buy or sell shares at a price,
reasonable or not, he don't care.
It is up to you to determine whether his offer meet your MOS target.
Most of the time, we will ignore him.
Once or twice a year, we will pick up some deal.
And, of course, this is not for the feign hearted.
Only extremely patient valuebuddies will be able to do this diligently.
I, myself, deviated as I have itchy fingers.
I applied the late oldman (Michael Leong) practise and
is trading happily with tikam $$$.
The trick is to know/tell which stock is speculative and which stock is investment.
erh... chapter 1 Investment vs Speculation (chapter bonus if you read so far)
Another characteristics of our valuebuddies is surprisingly FA+TA.
Very very seldom we see a FA only conversation.
Somehow or rather, TA is fashionable in choosing the entry point of a stock.
Personally, I don't really use TA except the most simplest form
1. MA/EMA and
2. support/resistance
Wish everyone a Merry Christmas and Happy new year.
Love Compassion
I use a bit of TA too, in a very simplistic manner like what you mentioned.
Mainly just moving averages.
The way I think about TA is simple: if it's a set of rules that market participants follow, and since the rules are fairly predictable, logically, knowing them allows one to then predict the thoughts/sentiment of these market participants who use TA.
It's like Soro's Theory of Reflexivity.
Cause and effect.
For eg. if tomorrow, there is a new TA rule that says that all companies with names starting with "T" have to trade at >PE 100.
We will laugh at that now.
But what if more and more and more of such TA practitioners look at charts and follow these "rules"?
Then when you have a company starting with "T" trading at PE 50, they'd buy because the TA rules says it should be >100.
Then the price will really rise such that it's >100, if you have sufficient of such people following these "rules"
Like I said, reflexivity. This becomes a self reinforcing truth.
I purposely used a ridiculous example to illustrate the concept. In investing in the stock market or financial matters nothing is ridiculous for me man.
Just like if you repeat a lie long enough, many people will believe it.
Open your mind as wide as possible in financial matters that you may not be scammed.
WB:-
1) Rule # 1, do not lose money.
2) Rule # 2, refer to # 1.
3) Not until you can manage your emotions, you can manage your money.
Truism of Investments.
A) Buying a security is buying RISK not Return
B) You can control RISK (to a certain level, hopefully only.) But definitely not the outcome of the Return.
NB:-
My signature is meant for psychoing myself. No offence to anyone. i am trying not to lose money unnecessary anymore.
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(20-12-2016, 10:35 PM)chialc88 Wrote: It's good that you're reading the book slowly page by page.
To be fair, not many valuebuddies able to read thru the whole book.
Imagine my joy when I discover (and introduced) a 100 pages summary in this
post in vb.com it's a NLB book too.
If you can read the 100 pages summary, you would end up to be better read
than most valuebuddies.
hi chialc88,
I think it is a pity to read only the end result of what someone has regurgitated once. But maybe that's how the SG education system had conformalized - lecture notes, summaries, powerpoints, 10years series etc..?
My favorite book is Nassim Taleb's "Fooled By Randomness" and i will be the first one to admit that large portions of the book - those parts where he talks about Greek philosophers (i think) - bore me to death (sleep). But those parts of the book whom music that fascinates me, it rhymes with me in my heart and when it plays out in real life, strikes the chord - theory is translated to practice in real life. Sometimes i see it as a treasure hunt, to find the gold in the pile, i will need to separate the good from the char.
But of course, i appreciate the non-conformity nature of us. So sometimes it speaks for a few, at other times, this crowd hears another drum beat. I still appreciate the "executive summaries" of most of the financial reporting we read.
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(21-12-2016, 08:30 AM)weijian Wrote: My favorite book is Nassim Taleb's "Fooled By Randomness" and i will be the first one to admit that large portions of the book - those parts where he talks about Greek philosophers (i think) - bore me to death (sleep). But those parts of the book whom music that fascinates me, it rhymes with me in my heart and when it plays out in real life, strikes the chord - theory is translated to practice in real life. Sometimes i see it as a treasure hunt, to find the gold in the pile, i will need to separate the good from the char.
I have read FBR by NT quite a number of years ago and I find the ideas in the book pretty interesting. However, it would appear that NT might be a better writer than investor. So far from the little that I know about NT, his returns have been somewhat iffy:
Empirica Capital
Universa Investments
The above links are consistent with my impression => good book but not so great record. I didn't try too hard to find those links. I would be happy to stand corrected if someone has better data to prove me wrong.
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I think those "black swan" funds mentioned were intended more as a portfolio insurance kind of financial product, rather than traditional investment asset class. As such, i don't think the returns achieved will be a good way to assess the track record of Taleb as an investor.
To add to the overall discussion, i have come across a book called "The Aspirational Investor" by Ashvin Chhabra. In it, he proposes a more personalized and objective driven investment approach and advocates a framework that consists of 3 portfolios, a safety portfolio, a market portfolio and an aspirational portfolio. I have yet to read the book but just reading some of the summaries and reviews online have helped me think more clearly on personal investment decisions.
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The little bit of personal history i have of NT, is that he supposingly made his money in the Nasdaq crash in 2000. I am not sure whether his assymetric bets paid off handsomely in GFC2008, but he does like to boast that he has f**k y*u money which allows him to spend the rest of his life doing what he likes  The last i read in Antifragile, he's working on his deadlifts (google "deadlift" if u dont know what it is) and the security at his apartment mistaken him for his own bodyguard.
Of course, i (or he) has no qualms when anyone question his performance/track record as a quant trader (that was what he used to call himself). He has always championed skin in the game, blasting all those ivy league academia and those appearing at Davos yearly. 
Regardless, i see folks like NT having the similar cognitive makeup like shortists do. The more famous short managers like Jim Chanos had also talked about his fund serving the function of portfolio insurance. These folks are against the grind to a certain extent. Short managers generally stand alone (until they are proven right) with threats of conspiracy theory/greed accusations and lawsuit threads thrown at them. Taking assymetric bets like NT claimed to do means enduring losing money in 9 out of 10bets. The journey is tough for both, because it goes against the crowd or simply our basic emotional makeup. I thought this is something worth understanding, regardless of their track record.
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22-12-2016, 08:49 AM
(This post was last modified: 22-12-2016, 06:34 PM by specuvestor.)
If one understands that crap do happen in real life and be prepared to react when it happens, then I think one has learnt his lesson and will do well in future Unknown-Unknowns
If one lives his life expecting black swan to happen anytime, then one's life will be like NT's portfolio and good for coffee shop boast of that moment of glory
https://www.valuebuddies.com/thread-7509...#pid129599
Before you speak, listen. Before you write, think. Before you spend, earn. Before you invest, investigate. Before you criticize, wait. Before you pray, forgive. Before you quit, try. Before you retire, save. Before you die, give. –William A. Ward
Think Asset-Business-Structure (ABS)
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one reason I don't really like the idea of attending course when people told me "attending course is to shorten the efforts and time in your learning path". it's more like taking 100% what people think it's correct and working and ask you to use it to trial and error. and anything you did has nothing to do with them as they are only providing you guidance and some direction and profit or loss is your issue. I understand that profit and loss has nothing to do with whoever that sells you the idea that he or she "proved" that it is "working" and make many people richer. how true I don't know. but if what they are teaching is already found in those recommended books out there. does providing a summary of it make it a shortcut worthwhile to pay for it? or is it more worthwhile to buy the book and digest them into your own knowledge and use it to make profits for yourself and still be able to share with others? of coz grab it or not is still the other party's issue but at least some guidance can be given. same thing p&l can't blame on u but at least he doesn't need to fork out few thousands to pay for that painful lessons?
I'm not sure if I'm making a point here or making my points very confusing for the rest here to follow.
It maybe slower to learn it yourself but the journey you went through is very worthwhile and enjoyable. and what you reap is your true gains in terms of knowledge and profits. and you know it if your strategy works or fail. you fine tune and better it to get the very end results that's what you're trying to achieve in the very first place.
and I'm more of a practical guy and I used to read a lot. thus reading a dry book is not really a problem for me. I even read the same book for several times. I read Kip Thorne's book which all my friends said it's very dry and they don't like it, prefer fiction books. I have no preferences as I also read technical books to learn whatever that capture my interests and I find it worthwhile to find out more myself. I join forums and Google stuff myself whenever I'm in doubts. if I can meet someone which the domain knowledge and consult him, that's even better and I would love to do it too. I like exchanges with people in real life and in forum or whichever channels that's easy and viable.
I don't have the habits of acepting stuff 100% from one party without digesting it myself. in that manner I'm just like a machine. replicating what's being input and output the results accordingly. it's like a computer, you input a+b it will output the answer c. how you get the C is not important. I'm those who like to find out how a+ b equals c. hope this also make my point too.
Sorry for hijacking this thread and hope my points are relevant and didn't digress too much.
Sent from my SM-N910G using Tapatalk
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I have read Nasim Taleb's 3 books; I like his Greek stories in his books. Its psychologically very difficult to invest like him, where u lose money most of the time until you hit a black swan and make money.
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