MOM bars marine firm from hiring foreigners

[flinger]

I think the one thing that has not been brought up in this topic is that the business might not be the right business to be in this country if it cannot use the manpower of this country.

Lets get something clear. These were jobs that Singapore can do and were willing to do and were doing it. The company basically retrenched with Shady reasons and hired low wage foreigners.

Most of the time, the reason is to increase the profit and lower the expense.

If however, it was replacing Singaporeans with Foreigners because the cost of maintaining the Singaporeans were too high, and they were not making profit, then its a business problem.

They will then slowly replace all Singaporeans that they can legally replace with foreigners. Is this the kind of business & investors we want in Singapore?

While they do that, they will benefiting from the low corporate income tax, the many government schemes that helps them make money and many other benefits.

I am not been biased here, but I was actually very surprised that they only got a 2 year workpass ban, no other charges for breaking the law?? What kind of ruling is that?

If it is only a two year ban and no other charges, I will do it again if I can profit from as I don't suffer much from it ?

[Big Toe]

It is the market that determines what our skills are worth not the employer.
Granted that some companies do have a 'preference' for foreign talent due to a number of reasons.
But if company A does not appreciate the worth of the worker, there is always company B.
If the company complies with all manpower guidelines but is unethical at the same time, I do not think
many people would be keen to stay on anyway and the company will ultimately fail due to the lack of diversity and talent.
Also bear in mind that companies do compete aggressively for the right talent, and the company that pays top bucks will usually get the right people for the job.

At the end of the day, we may encounter practices that is unfair. Life is not fair to begin with but if we can overcome that, we can become a bigger person. I think Jack Ma is a good example, he rode a bicycle to town just to converse with foreigners and learn English. His first encounter with a computer is at age 33. Maybe he is born smarter and has better foresight but I am damn sure he worked harder than anyone else to be where he is today. He is made in china and yes, we should learn a thing or two about his work ethics.

What I feel more strongly about is a minimum salary. No one deserves a miserly salary while working full time in Singapore.
The old lady that clears your table at the food court deserves more. Rent at coffeeshops could be lower and the salaries of the lowest tier of Singaporean workers should be higher.

[pianist]

Dont forget the boss is a PRC and most employees are foreign or PRC as well and the boss actually sack away Sporean to hire their own kind or to cut cost.

Who hire the Singaporeans in first place?

Looks to me that this company may be in dire financial situation to resort to such means to cut cost.

What makes them want or need to hire sporeans in the first place? Given a choice u think they want to?

I dont know, but if my co is in dire financial situation, i will retrench pp. Not replace pp.

good observation. many discussion here revolves around the noble/usual academic theories like economy, skills, competition,labor cost etc..
but i just want to speculate/opine certain industry/business has a moat/higher margin or able to run with capital injection/related trade/strong support from its Head Office jurisdiction e.g. china where market/business is big and opening a sub-branch/outlet/subsidiary in this red dot is just like planting an convenient eye for future/regional expansion. one example of 'brainless/not required deep expertise' business is e.g. oil bunkering go out sea pump fuel, not too difficult skills, repeatable yet prone to dirty money flow because it hard to trace this consignment of fuel purchase from russia to buyers which can be random, make sure inventory is well controlled

chinese companies plant some companies here for oil/material trading/shipping connected to sister companies in other offshore tax havens. is altogether possible complex group structure..also there is a RMB currency control back in china..so companies set up here to facilitate trade/fund/money flow.

above are personal observation to-date. unlikely this company is in dire situation, bet/guess is more like freeing and pulling some of its natives to want to live overseas. aplenty chinese wanna migrate overseas to look for greener pasture, get pr/citizen or put children through school here for better life.

through this process, this is probably how hot or sometime dirty monies flow through the boundary, and in the process, more tax coffers at the expense of inflated asset prices in the red dot

if my comment is inappropriate/offensive, moderator pl delete

[corydorus]

We tend to view issue narrowly and fail to take things on a broader perspectives. For example a company can have 50% foreigners but if we can keep them in singapore, we gain 50% other. Well we could say this industry is not a niche we want but aren't we being elite to the point where there may be many average locals who can't get into that narrow niche type of work ? This 50% not so great for Singapore, but can cater for them. This jobs can be electrician, secretary, accountant, Audit, GM etc which well could fit to higher ranges of work. This very GM after some years will have strong experience to run a larger company here too. So are the the different vacations as they move on.

As for the minimum wage i do have different opinion but i do not want to derail the main topic here.

[flinger]

Hi Big Toe,

I would have to respectfully disagree with you on some of your points.

These are my views based on my working experience over many years .

1. Market defining what our skills are worth - Market determines the skills for those on the high value range as there is a competition for it. However if you are not in the high value range, employers often determine your worth.

2. Companies fail because of lack of diversity and talent. That is true for a good company that is looking to build a business and grow with employees it has. But the reality is many companies are not like that. Many not all.

These companies (small & Big) use many various tactics to prevent failure. e.g. a)use temp foreigner workers who are on social pass , b)hire foreigners at the lowest cost even though the foreigner does not know how to do the job, but he is willing to work overtime and through the night for the low pay. c) use ghost workers d) hire desperate locals who are looking for a job at the lowest pay and drive them like a slave.
etc...etc...etc...etc...


I agree with you that everyone needs to be hungry and needs to put in the hard work and effort to get what they want.

Life is unfair, but that is not an excuse for us to let employers to abuse us so that they can increase their profits.

Also, it is not an excuse to let companies who use Singapore tax dollars to their advantage while not benefiting Singaporeans.

If a company can only survive if it hires a lot of low paid foreigners, then they have rethink if they are in the right country and in the right business.

A reasonable playing field is all most people ask I think.

To be fair, I have seen fair share of people who feel they are entitled to a job and other related stuff, there will always be people like that, but they won't get anywhere with that attitude.

Thank You.

It is the market that determines what our skills are worth not the employer.
Granted that some companies do have a 'preference' for foreign talent due to a number of reasons.
But if company A does not appreciate the worth of the worker, there is always company B.
If the company complies with all manpower guidelines but is unethical at the same time, I do not think
many people would be keen to stay on anyway and the company will ultimately fail due to the lack of diversity and talent.
Also bear in mind that companies do compete aggressively for the right talent, and the company that pays top bucks will usually get the right people for the job.

At the end of the day, we may encounter practices that is unfair. Life is not fair to begin with but if we can overcome that, we can become a bigger person. I think Jack Ma is a good example, he rode a bicycle to town just to converse with foreigners and learn English. His first encounter with a computer is at age 33. Maybe he is born smarter and has better foresight but I am damn sure he worked harder than anyone else to be where he is today. He is made in china and yes, we should learn a thing or two about his work ethics.

What I feel more strongly about is a minimum salary. No one deserves a miserly salary while working full time in Singapore.
The old lady that clears your table at the food court deserves more. Rent at coffeeshops could be lower and the salaries of the lowest tier of Singaporean workers should be higher.

[Big Toe]

Good discussion.

Many points are valid. The many industries that exists here probably have its own unique set of dynamics.
I cant say for other industries but I am familiar with RnD/manufacturing and retail so let's talk about those.

Rnd Engineers are sought after world wide. The same work is done in many countries. Overheads in Europe is very high and the overall cost of having some RnD activity in Singapore makes sense. RnD engineers are extremely mobile. Abuse? Unlikely. The guy can just walk away. Many engineers in China are paid just as much as the guys in Singapore if the skills they posses is sought after.

General Retail. Isetan is bleeding. Traditional retailers are being slowly taken over by online merchants, and the competition is coming from online merchants from China, Europe & U.S. Rents are soaring, margins are becoming wafer thin. Enough said, this sector is doomed for stagnant/low wages/pay that wont increase much. The only exception is for the luxury segment. The shareholders/bosses are not interested in continuing on and they are just bleeding, losing money for every day of operation.


The bigger picture is that the business environment must make sense to all stakeholders for a company to survive and thrive. A good balance of all stakeholders involved. For those who have been taking a salary, put yourself into the shoes of your bosses(actual owners of the company). For the bosses, ask yourself if you would want to work in your own company as a normal salaried worker. Some bosses I know sink their entire fortune into a business, work 24/7 and lost all $ within a few years. His employees?, at least they still get paid, a bit disappointed having worked in a failed company. Zero risk for employees.

[investor101]

Here's my two cents worth:

A country can only make progress if some basic rules are in place. Without these basic rules, no amount of hard work and creativity will make a serious difference. Just look at the farmers in places like Philippines, China, India and Somalia. You are telling me that they are slackers?

Basic rules:
1. Individuals, businesses, students must be given incentives in order to succeed

2. The law has to be first and foremost, fair. It must protect basic rights such as clampdown on discrimination, racism, nepotism, various forms of favouritism, including foreigners favouring of firing locals in order to bring in foreigners

2a. The law has to be very strict against exploitation of labour, especially menial and blue wage workers. That often means having a strong labour union and strong labour laws


I see Singapore getting worse. The number of people having incentives to succeed is getting lesser with each year.


I know of a number of civil servant friends who think that they are entitled to a lifetime of high salary simply because they scored very well at A-levels and obtained a scholarship - teaching, SAF, public service. They have totally no idea of how people in the private sector struggle for survival, and many don't really care and simply pay lip and say that they do. They don't. Period.

I know of many students and parents who push very hard for their kids to get lots of 'A's, get good ECA credentials, not for personal growth, but more for the aspiration of getting a scholarship. Again, the idea for a lifetime of high salary in the public service and stat boards

The number of anecdotal stories of PMETs being retrenched and replaced by foreigners is increasing with each passing year. Many of these citizen PMETs are relegated to driving taxis and doing security guard work, both of which are despised professions. Just look at the number of stories of foreigners beating up our cabbies. I am trying to figure out how many people feel the incentive to strive and improve, when at the end of the day, there are higher powers who decide to fire you simply because they want to bring in their own countrymen, or they feel it is more worthwhile to bring in someone cheaper despite being less qualified.

Yes, I do have friends who boasted that if they are really good, no sane boss would want to fire them. Two of them are now driving taxis. They never though they would end up with such a fate.

And with recent case of the PRC company firing 13 singaporeans, a number of us can't help but feel that MOM is either tacitly supporting this PRC company or telling us that it is helpless to really take this company to task and punish them for this blatant injustice.

Not being able to hire new foreigners is not a big deal. My place of work often subcontracts work out to other companies if we need them. We subcontract for IT support, and an IT company will assign a full-time IT personnel over. He is not part of our full-time staff, but he reports to work at my company everyday. The marine company will simply do something very similar. MOM's punishment seems like a light slap on the wrist.


Hawker food quality is declining. In the past, it was common for hawkers to put in a lot of effort to improve their food. While they may claim they did it out of love, a big part of the reason was because if their food tasted really good, they get more customers and they get to keep the bulk of the fruits of their labour.

Now, rental has escalated. Despite what the MTI publishes about rental rates barely inching up or down, it is common to know of shopkeepers whose rental increase by double-digit percentages every two years if they are lucky. Rental goes up by double-digit percentages is normal, and when rental comes down by around 5%, we are in a property crisis and alarm bells are ringing.

The bulk of the fruits of entreprenuership is being eaten up by rental, and most sane people would not want to spend so much effort at their business, knowing full well that most of their labour goes not to them, but to their landlords, who now are starting to include percentage of sales as part of the rental agreement.

Look at the rise of REITs. Most investors are realising that it is more profitable to be part of the rent-seeking crowd, than to put in effort to innovate and take risks.

I have eaten at a number of those so-called famous stalls or restaurants. Their food is nothing to rave about. Things seemed different from the 90s or early 2000s. Now, more and more food is factory made. Not for economies of scale, but simply because people baulk at putting in more effort since an increasing amount of the fruits of labour goes into an ever increasing rent.

Conclusion

I see a lot of people who feel entitled to good things in life. I also see a lot of people losing incentives to strive. There are also a growing number of people who were successful in their careers, but suddenly made to go drive taxis or be security guards because of discrimination based on being Singaporean. And there is really no real recourse for them. In the past, the term "taking action" was something really serious and dreaded. Now, it looks like a real joke and during lunch talks, I do hear of talks by foreigners openly who want to fire Singaporeans and replace them with foreigners. They know MOM will take action against them, but they are also ware that the "action" taken would not be serious, as we have given the impression that we want at all costs for the foreigners to stay. Action taken by MOM against companies that have discriminated against Singaporeans have not once seem serious. I really think Singapore is no longer the Singapore I once knew.

[Fish Head]

Here's my two cents worth:

A country can only make progress if some basic rules are in place. Without these basic rules, no amount of hard work and creativity will make a serious difference. Just look at the farmers in places like Philippines, China, India and Somalia. You are telling me that they are slackers?

Basic rules:
1. Individuals, businesses, students must be given incentives in order to succeed

2. The law has to be first and foremost, fair. It must protect basic rights such as clampdown on discrimination, racism, nepotism, various forms of favouritism, including foreigners favouring of firing locals in order to bring in foreigners

2a. The law has to be very strict against exploitation of labour, especially menial and blue wage workers. That often means having a strong labour union and strong labour laws


I see Singapore getting worse. The number of people having incentives to succeed is getting lesser with each year.


I know of a number of civil servant friends who think that they are entitled to a lifetime of high salary simply because they scored very well at A-levels and obtained a scholarship - teaching, SAF, public service. They have totally no idea of how people in the private sector struggle for survival, and many don't really care and simply pay lip and say that they do. They don't. Period.

I know of many students and parents who push very hard for their kids to get lots of 'A's, get good ECA credentials, not for personal growth, but more for the aspiration of getting a scholarship. Again, the idea for a lifetime of high salary in the public service and stat boards

The number of anecdotal stories of PMETs being retrenched and replaced by foreigners is increasing with each passing year. Many of these citizen PMETs are relegated to driving taxis and doing security guard work, both of which are despised professions. Just look at the number of stories of foreigners beating up our cabbies. I am trying to figure out how many people feel the incentive to strive and improve, when at the end of the day, there are higher powers who decide to fire you simply because they want to bring in their own countrymen, or they feel it is more worthwhile to bring in someone cheaper despite being less qualified.

Yes, I do have friends who boasted that if they are really good, no sane boss would want to fire them. Two of them are now driving taxis. They never though they would end up with such a fate.

And with recent case of the PRC company firing 13 singaporeans, a number of us can't help but feel that MOM is either tacitly supporting this PRC company or telling us that it is helpless to really take this company to task and punish them for this blatant injustice.

Not being able to hire new foreigners is not a big deal. My place of work often subcontracts work out to other companies if we need them. We subcontract for IT support, and an IT company will assign a full-time IT personnel over. He is not part of our full-time staff, but he reports to work at my company everyday. The marine company will simply do something very similar. MOM's punishment seems like a light slap on the wrist.


Hawker food quality is declining. In the past, it was common for hawkers to put in a lot of effort to improve their food. While they may claim they did it out of love, a big part of the reason was because if their food tasted really good, they get more customers and they get to keep the bulk of the fruits of their labour.

Now, rental has escalated. Despite what the MTI publishes about rental rates barely inching up or down, it is common to know of shopkeepers whose rental increase by double-digit percentages every two years if they are lucky. Rental goes up by double-digit percentages is normal, and when rental comes down by around 5%, we are in a property crisis and alarm bells are ringing.

The bulk of the fruits of entreprenuership is being eaten up by rental, and most sane people would not want to spend so much effort at their business, knowing full well that most of their labour goes not to them, but to their landlords, who now are starting to include percentage of sales as part of the rental agreement.

Look at the rise of REITs. Most investors are realising that it is more profitable to be part of the rent-seeking crowd, than to put in effort to innovate and take risks.

I have eaten at a number of those so-called famous stalls or restaurants. Their food is nothing to rave about. Things seemed different from the 90s or early 2000s. Now, more and more food is factory made. Not for economies of scale, but simply because people baulk at putting in more effort since an increasing amount of the fruits of labour goes into an ever increasing rent.

Conclusion

I see a lot of people who feel entitled to good things in life. I also see a lot of people losing incentives to strive. There are also a growing number of people who were successful in their careers, but suddenly made to go drive taxis or be security guards because of discrimination based on being Singaporean. And there is really no real recourse for them. In the past, the term "taking action" was something really serious and dreaded. Now, it looks like a real joke and during lunch talks, I do hear of talks by foreigners openly who want to fire Singaporeans and replace them with foreigners. They know MOM will take action against them, but they are also ware that the "action" taken would not be serious, as we have given the impression that we want at all costs for the foreigners to stay. Action taken by MOM against companies that have discriminated against Singaporeans have not once seem serious. I really think Singapore is no longer the Singapore I once knew.

A very impressive article. The sad thing comes into my mind is that this is situation happening everywhere in the world, and I don't see a possibility that the situation will change in the future regardless of who is the government or PM.

The globalization is getting to a point that there are little thing can be done by any government to fight with inequality caused by free flow of capital. When Singaporean is expensive, and limited foreigner can't be hired, the company can any time move to another country.

Take a typical electronic MNC as an example, very likely 5% angmo being top management. 20 - 30% Singaporean or PR to be managers and engineers, and >60% are foreigners to be operators. It looks like majority of the jobs from this company are for foreigners. But don't forget there are 100 SMCs owned by Singaporeans are rely on the business with this MNC. This company makes 1 billion for Singapore, and pay millions dollars as tax.

Shall we take action to this company in order to get more job for Singaporeans? The answer is yes, but not too much. This company has the right to move to another low cost country anytime. How much cost we are willing to pay by our economic in order to flight for the "fairness". When Intel was planing to move out form Costa Rica, it is a national disaster for this tiny and rich Latin American country. Singapore is nothing better than Costa Rica.

On the other hand, how many of you really think that we are performing better than our parent generation in the global competition? And how many of you think that our younger generation is smarter and more hardworking than their parents? I doubt so, but at the same time the younger generation is asking for higher pay and easier job in an increasing competitive global environment.

The competition in the job market today is not among the foreign passport holder working at Buona Vista, the India shipyard worker at Tuas and the NUS graduated Singaporeans. It is among Singaporeans with the young man at Shanghai, who graduated from MIT, the New Delhi computer engineer graduated from Stanford U, and the young lady at Brazil with MBA from Harvard. Your job can be replaced tomorrow easily by some of them; and MOM doesn't able to do anything. The factory doesn't even need to move. It is a real but invisible competition.

I just feel that people spend too much time crying to MOM or government or opposition parties, hoping that someone among them will able to help to change the situation. 10+ years ago, there is a book named "The World is Flat" warning us that we are going into a world that will be highly divided by personal skills. The middle class is losing their ground. The highly paid, and the very poor are forming the M shape society everywhere in the world.

We can only work on our own financial status, and professional skills to deal with this situation. Take care of yourselves.

[corydorus]

I have a management style in my team. If my staff can do the tasks i am doing today, i pass it to them.
Why ? Simply because they are cheaper. They can lament all day and night. I don't care because i need to offload this stuff and push myself higher up the value chain so that whole team benefits in their career and learning.

Same with the foreign worker. If they can work much cheaper and locals cannot match their cost for similar expectation of work, either we suck their level of pay or move ourselves up. Yes as locals we have some rights but only to a point. If the business can't operate or find it too tough they will move elsewhere. And they will move like a flip of the switch. Is a tough world out there and we need to continuous move ourselves up the value chains.

The best way to protect our rights is not by erecting barriers from the world but to embrace it to our advantage.

[Big Toe]

Can't agree more with Cory and fish head. Especially the last sentence.
My former boss(many many many years ago) is a Singaporean but favors foreigners as subordinates as they tend to be more submissive. In the end I got eliminated from a very decent paying job. Of course I was unhappy, fast forward to present, my former boss is still in his fish tank office, a bigger and nicer one, with better pay probably. Me, I am happy as a Toe can be. Me being ousted is probably the best thing that ever happened, and that's the whole truth. It is then that I discovered I can stand on my own 2 feet and do not need to work for a large corporation or someone else.

The truth of the matter is that you can bring a man down for a while by taking away his job/salary but you can't take away his spirit/skill/knowledge/drive. It is the later that is needed to thrive.