Sino Grandness

[crubs]

Good evening everyone.

To crubs, Young Investor and SG diehard fans.

Your $ your call, my $ my call.

<even after Chairman said during AGM categorically that they will pay back all>
So as the head of the company, he did not keep his promise. How are shareholders suppose to trust him again ?

<Debronic San provided some good links on SG>
Why are all you keeping quiet ?

I am not vested and rather take the $ to help orphanages than buy s chips.

Last but not least - Is not a matter who's right but who's left.

<Not Vested>

Hi kbl,

To answer your questions first
"<Debronic San provided some good links on SG>
Why are all you keeping quiet ?"

According to this Euromonitor Report -- http://www.euromonitor.com/soft-drinks-in-china/report -- Online retailing of beverages account for less than 2% of all beverages purchased in 2015. Is one able to gauge the performance of a product by searching a few websites that are part of a sales channel that accounts for less than 2% of all beverage sales ? By the way, Garden Fresh has an online store on their WeChat account. You can add them and visit the store.

"<even after Chairman said during AGM categorically that they will pay back all>
So as the head of the company, he did not keep his promise. How are shareholders suppose to trust him again ?"

Allow me to cite a recent example.
On 4th Dec 2015, Chip Eng Seng announced a proposal to Spin-off its construction unit. This announcement can be found on SGX
On 15th Feb 2016, Chip Eng Seng cancelled the Spin-off.
Chip Eng Seng did not keep their promise. Are shareholders suppose to trust them again ? Why are they still credible ?
Circumstances changed, so decision changes.

In my opinion, the argument of him not keeping his promise is an excuse rather than a reason to not trust him. The real reason is because this company is an S-Chip. Your comment "I am not vested and rather take the $ to help orphanages than buy s chips." suggests this bias against S-Chips, which is perfectly understandable.

[corydorus]

Stocks are easily manipulated in forum, rumors, tips etc by syndicates comprising of analyst, money maker, broker, insiders and ...this are real.

When in doubt i will avoid especially s-chips simply there will be other opportunity. If i lose it, this will takes a long time to recover. This are hard earn money. I am also sure some will learn their lesson due to greed so reader beware.

[Boon]

Hi Young Investor

High and low is a matter of what we call advertising intensity. What it means is simply the amount of advertising dollar you need to maintain or increase your revenue or market share. It is also a function of industry competition and branding.

In fact previously some forumer asked if the figure is too low for Sino Grand. Huiyuan has about 30% of revenue spent on "selling and marketing expenses" in 2014. So you do your own analysis. If it is purely about numbers then accountants are all great investors; it is to learn to look beyond the numbers to understand the asset, business and structure.

There are 2 types of people that go AGM: one that goes straight for the food after AGM; and the other go the opposite direction. VB has low postings does not mean it has low traffic, and no seasoned VB has big enough ego or mouth to shoot his own foot.

Another interesting document from the web.

Has Sino G ever disclosed to its shareholders that Grandness Sichuan had stopped production (as reported in the environmental impact report document ) because it could not compete in the overseas market?
 
http://www.doc88.com/p-9049465585832.html
建设项目环境影响报告表
(公示版)
项 目 名 称:15 万吨果蔬饮料生产线技改项目
建设单位(盖章):四川鲜绿园果蔬饮料有限公司 
________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

I think the guidelines for disclosure is whether the business development significantly affect the balance sheet, p&l and cash flow of the company.

Sichuan factory was not disposed off. SG changed the use for this factory.

There was a factory in Yunnan which SG sold off and the transaction was announced.

Sichuan and Yunnan are inland provinces. SG needed to be nearer to the ports for the benefits of their export business.

Yes it doesn't need to be reported as not significant.

What is interesting to me is that it cost RMB21m to produce 150k tons production vs RMB596m "Deposit paid for non-current asset" at end 2015.

The answer to the RMB500+ mil prepayment was shared in post 1383 on page 139 by forummer eyesonme on 28 Feb 2016 reproduced below.

Below is the response I previously got when i checked with the IR:
1) PPE for production lines are tailored/customised, prepayment range between 60% to 80%
2) The deposit is for 
- Anhui - 2 low temperature beverage production lines, 
- Hubei - 2 canned beverage production lines, 
- Shanxi - 2 canned fruits production lines and 
- Shanxian - 2 canned fruits production lines.

These are likely to be greenfield productionn facilities while the rmb 21 mil is an additional line in an existing facility.

Specuvestor, i am also curious to know how you know TTA did not perform any due diligence before investing in S Grandness.

Piaopiao

RMB21m is actually to change the entire facility from canned products to 150k tons beverage production which I am not sure if there is synergy. 2 points to consider is the beverage production capacity for the company now and that it took 2 troublesome RMB370m EB to reach where it is now. If you deem that as plausible, so be your conviction.

And to Young Investor as well... I have been as obvious as possible to explain what happened but if you can't get the drift, it's ok. Portuser is right that this discussion cannot be from entities who doesn't know the process. From TTA's perspective the board seat gives them comfort to know the details after... The investment $ is like 1 out of their 2 dozen ships. If my credibility in my posting in past 3.5 years has been of BDO standard, please do feel free to take a discount to what I had posted. I am past that age whereby I can be moved to do irrational things by mere taunting by some faceless forumers. What moves me nowadays is upside / downside analysis.

As I posted before they are having an institutional luncheon tomorrow and latest update is it is postponed. I'm sure someone will ask me to prove or verify which I won't either. Nonetheless their AGM is coming 25 this month so do take time to be fed with insights rather than be fed inside

Try to reconcile prepayment shared in post 1383 on page 139 by forummer eyesonme on 28 Feb 2016 with that given on page 79 of AR 2015, does it make sense?
 
The RMB 246.800 m paid by Garden Fresh (Shenzhen) is for which production lines?
 
 A 150,000 tons production capacity (plant and machineries ) in Sichuan costs only RMB 21 m, while the lowest deposit paid ( RMB 70.544 m) by a subsidiary is more than 3 times that of RMB 21 m, does it make sense? Are they each at least paying for plant and equipment with production capacity of roughly 450,000 tons?
__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

[Bluechipfan]

I am grateful if forumers declare their bias against s chip up front like kbi. Then I know where they are coming from. Fraud is not exclusive to s chip, if only its that simple. Just look at ABL saga, clearly fraud and they are still around. Are they s chip? Is it better to buy their shares than sino's? All I can say is it some s chip is better than local chip.

[Boon]

From page 79 of Sino G's AR2015:
 
As of 31-Dec-2015, of the RMB 595.777 m deposit paid for non-current assets, RMB 573.245 m are advances to suppliers for purchases of plant and machineries by Sino G as a Group.
 
Of this RMB 573.245 m, Garden Fresh’s share was RMB 350.311 m (103.511 m +  246.800 m).
 
However, as reported on page 241 of the “Application Proof” document, as of 31-Dec-2015, prepayment to suppliers for Garden Fresh Group only amounted to RMB 72.200 m
 
Does it make sense? 
___________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

[portuser]

From page 79 of Sino G's AR2015:
 
As of 31-Dec-2015, of the RMB 595.777 m deposit paid for non-current assets, RMB 573.245 m are advances to suppliers for purchases of plant and machineries by Sino G as a Group.
 
Of this RMB 573.245 m, Garden Fresh’s share was RMB 350.311 m (103.511 m +  246.800 m).
 
However, as reported on page 241 of the “Application Proof” document, as of 31-Dec-2015, prepayment to suppliers for Garden Fresh Group only amounted to RMB 72.200 m
 
Does it make sense? 
___________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

RMB 72.2m was not for capital projects.

Please refer to the balance sheet attached to the accountant's report in the application poof.

Deposit paid for non-current assets was RMB 350.31m, which tallies with what you have shown. Note 18 shows the breakdown.

[fatpudge]

Whenever an investment is made, we are buying a stake in the future of the companies. One of the most important criteria for investors, are earnings. A healthy company generates positive cash flow, sufficient enough to fund its future growth, and sufficient enough to reward its investors (in the forms of dividends). Intuitively, a company that has negative cash flow, or decreasing cash flow year-on-year spells trouble. As prudent investors, we should always be informed of the earning results of the companies we are invested in.

Annual general meetings soon. As an investor, these meetings are rather important. Investors get to understand the business model, and the company’s strategies to grow moving forward (if they don’t already). Also, most of these AGMs include goodie bags, and awesome buffet spreads.

These are the views from my investment guru broker.

[CityFarmer]

Moderator log:

I have banned one of the two IDs, hold by a same person, to avoid confusion to our VBs. There is no serious manipulation observed, thus I decided to keep one of his ID, which is the current active one.

Regards
Moderator

[DCF]

use the current dip to add more. my reasons are:
+ the IPO draft provided a lot of depth and business insight on how they run the business. Impossible for fake business, so credibility of the financial numbers are good
+ market is still growing and this company can remain a growth stock for the next 5 years, at least
+ DBS as a sponsor should have checked the number, given the change in ruling in HKSE on the responsibility of sponsor. As in other cases, DBS analyst will start covering Garden Fresh, and likely Sino G. This should interest other analysts to report as well
+ Given the huge increase in TV advertisement and other A&P fire power, Sino G should book record sales in the trade show just concluded
+ The CB settlement just concluded. The related finance cost over the last few years should be written back in Q1, giving a record profit
+ Still cheap at PE of less than 4, excluding all CB related finance cost

[fatpudge]

Hi CityFarmer, I find weird that after every posts I got the so called Moderator warning Message. After chatting with a colleague during smoke break, I realised you have in fact banned my colleague. Well, maybe I am paranoid. But we don't mind meeting you in person so you can see two faces and we can login at the same time for you to verify it is 2 persons instead of one. Please help advise.