Sino Grandness

[Young Investor]

specuvestor,

Young Investor asked : "I will also appreciate Specuvestor elaborate on his statement "TTA didn't even do any due diligence." Was it hearsay?"

Which could be answered by a simple yes or no.

But your reply was : "There are 2 types of people that go AGM: one that goes straight for the food after AGM; and the other go the opposite direction. VB has low postings does not mean it has low traffic, and no seasoned VB has big enough ego or mouth to shoot his own foot."

you talked about AGM behaviour and VB but did not answer the question

can you clarify where and when did you see or hear that "TTA didn't even do any due diligence" ? put it out here so that everyone evaluate and decide whether your statement is true.

"no seasoned VB has big enough ego or mouth to shoot his own foot"
How many stars, reputation points does one need to have to be considered seasoned ?
Are you saying that seasoned VB's can never be wrong, say wrong things and make mistakes ?

Crubs

Simple no just for you

The other types that go AGM will know i answered the question. Im assuming young investor got my drift. The logic explained was quite simple: how significant do you think this investment $ is to TTA?
http://www.thoresen.com/misc/presentatio...fy2015.pdf

I dont think anyone is infallible. I meant no seasoned VBs will elaborate discussions in a public forum with no upside. But reputation like big4 helps people have a sense of the credibility attached to the statements.

Specuvestor

I don't get your drift.

Is it logical that TTA did not do any due diligence just because the amount spent ($34.7m) on buying Sino Grandness shares was not significant to TTA?

It is just your assumption. Do you know the cutoff point that TTA does not do due diligence? 

This is a forum for serious discussion and I hope you will elaborate.

My friends and I are interested to know what is your source of info that TTA didn't even do any due diligence. 

[piaopiao]

Hi Young Investor

High and low is a matter of what we call advertising intensity. What it means is simply the amount of advertising dollar you need to maintain or increase your revenue or market share. It is also a function of industry competition and branding.

In fact previously some forumer asked if the figure is too low for Sino Grand. Huiyuan has about 30% of revenue spent on "selling and marketing expenses" in 2014. So you do your own analysis. If it is purely about numbers then accountants are all great investors; it is to learn to look beyond the numbers to understand the asset, business and structure.

There are 2 types of people that go AGM: one that goes straight for the food after AGM; and the other go the opposite direction. VB has low postings does not mean it has low traffic, and no seasoned VB has big enough ego or mouth to shoot his own foot.

Another interesting document from the web.

Has Sino G ever disclosed to its shareholders that Grandness Sichuan had stopped production (as reported in the environmental impact report document ) because it could not compete in the overseas market?
 
http://www.doc88.com/p-9049465585832.html
建设项目环境影响报告表
(公示版)
项 目 名 称:15 万吨果蔬饮料生产线技改项目
建设单位(盖章):四川鲜绿园果蔬饮料有限公司 
________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

I think the guidelines for disclosure is whether the business development significantly affect the balance sheet, p&l and cash flow of the company.

Sichuan factory was not disposed off. SG changed the use for this factory.

There was a factory in Yunnan which SG sold off and the transaction was announced.

Sichuan and Yunnan are inland provinces. SG needed to be nearer to the ports for the benefits of their export business.

Yes it doesn't need to be reported as not significant.

What is interesting to me is that it cost RMB21m to produce 150k tons production vs RMB596m "Deposit paid for non-current asset" at end 2015.

The answer to the RMB500+ mil prepayment was shared in post 1383 on page 139 by forummer eyesonme on 28 Feb 2016 reproduced below.

Below is the response I previously got when i checked with the IR:
1) PPE for production lines are tailored/customised, prepayment range between 60% to 80%
2) The deposit is for 
- Anhui - 2 low temperature beverage production lines, 
- Hubei - 2 canned beverage production lines, 
- Shanxi - 2 canned fruits production lines and 
- Shanxian - 2 canned fruits production lines.

These are likely to be greenfield productionn facilities while the rmb 21 mil is an additional line in an existing facility.

Specuvestor, i am also curious to know how you know TTA did not perform any due diligence before investing in S Grandness.

[guitarist]

I really regret not jumping into SG after reading all the good analyses regarding the IPO. I regret it because the share price has jumped 2x and I could easily doubled my money. Just like that. Easy. Not that I had never done any due diligence. I came to this forum and read postings by many experts. You guys rock! Any red flags were explained away in great details and that really eased my worries. No worries, mate! All the good night sleeps. I really wish other experts could clear red flags in other threads of other companies with such efficiency and enthusiasm. This forum would be so valuable, not that it isn't now, and investing would be so much easier. Really!

So the bondholders got a favorable outcum, a happy ending so to speak. I mean, at my age (no disrespect to other old fellows), if I could even stand up straight like you guys, I would be more than happy to have any ending. I would go on and on, yeah, like an Energizer rabbit. I wish that too. In my wildest dreams perhaps. But bondholders are not shareholders. The securities are not perceptual. 

What about shareholders? From here? Can the share price double again? Many experts but no one can tell me that. Absolutely no one. Not that I'm not doing my due diligence. As I mentioned earlier, I read every post you guys put up. Didn't I say that? Sorry, I can't really remember. I need need to dig out the exact words in my previous posts. Help me?

There are many things I don't remember, but that's ok. I remember only those things that matter. Actually, most things that mattered don't matter now. I'm more willing to let them go. Don't hang on. What's the point of hanging on to things that don't matter when you can use the time to hang on to things that make you happy? 

Are you sure you are happy? Ah-ha...I hear you questioning my integrity!

I didn't double my money. You can laugh now. I can laugh too. This is called the freedom of laughter. Do we need to enact a law and enforce the freedom of laughter? Do we need proof to show you that I'm laughing and not crying when I didn't double my money? A lot of you may not believe that I'm laughing but what the hoot? To some people, whether I laugh or I cry make a whole lot of difference. They will ask, did you secretly, yes I mean secretly, triple your money on another stock? You got to come clean. Which was the stock that really make you laugh? If you don't reveal it, you are hiding something. I mean, get a grip. You can't have a baby in a month by getting 9 women pregnant! You get hell! Now you are laughing. Must I threaten you that this is my joke?

According to Albert, relativity is when the joker tells a joke and the jokee said huh? Do I need show you evidence on relativity? Do I need to elaborate? I mean this is serious stuff! There's no drift. 

Alright, now you're talking. You are vested. In what way? We are talking within the law of the universe. Yes, our universe. Did you double your money, the way that I didn't? I regret but I can laugh. You laugh but you can regret. Insiders, outsiders, we all live in the same universe. Do what you do to others what you want others to do to you.

[fatpudge]

my friend just back from hong kong over the the weekend, he saw alot of double decker buses with garden fresh advertisement smacked on the exteriors. maybe this explains the increases in advertising expenses ya. too bad my friend never try the drinks, maybe he went lan kwai fong drink

[specuvestor]

Hi Young Investor

High and low is a matter of what we call advertising intensity. What it means is simply the amount of advertising dollar you need to maintain or increase your revenue or market share. It is also a function of industry competition and branding.

In fact previously some forumer asked if the figure is too low for Sino Grand. Huiyuan has about 30% of revenue spent on "selling and marketing expenses" in 2014. So you do your own analysis. If it is purely about numbers then accountants are all great investors; it is to learn to look beyond the numbers to understand the asset, business and structure.

There are 2 types of people that go AGM: one that goes straight for the food after AGM; and the other go the opposite direction. VB has low postings does not mean it has low traffic, and no seasoned VB has big enough ego or mouth to shoot his own foot.

Another interesting document from the web.

Has Sino G ever disclosed to its shareholders that Grandness Sichuan had stopped production (as reported in the environmental impact report document ) because it could not compete in the overseas market?
 
http://www.doc88.com/p-9049465585832.html
建设项目环境影响报告表
(公示版)
项 目 名 称:15 万吨果蔬饮料生产线技改项目
建设单位(盖章):四川鲜绿园果蔬饮料有限公司 
________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

I think the guidelines for disclosure is whether the business development significantly affect the balance sheet, p&l and cash flow of the company.

Sichuan factory was not disposed off. SG changed the use for this factory.

There was a factory in Yunnan which SG sold off and the transaction was announced.

Sichuan and Yunnan are inland provinces. SG needed to be nearer to the ports for the benefits of their export business.

Yes it doesn't need to be reported as not significant.

What is interesting to me is that it cost RMB21m to produce 150k tons production vs RMB596m "Deposit paid for non-current asset" at end 2015.

The answer to the RMB500+ mil prepayment was shared in post 1383 on page 139 by forummer eyesonme on 28 Feb 2016 reproduced below.

Below is the response I previously got when i checked with the IR:
1) PPE for production lines are tailored/customised, prepayment range between 60% to 80%
2) The deposit is for 
- Anhui - 2 low temperature beverage production lines, 
- Hubei - 2 canned beverage production lines, 
- Shanxi - 2 canned fruits production lines and 
- Shanxian - 2 canned fruits production lines.

These are likely to be greenfield productionn facilities while the rmb 21 mil is an additional line in an existing facility.

Specuvestor, i am also curious to know how you know TTA did not perform any due diligence before investing in S Grandness.

Piaopiao

RMB21m is actually to change the entire facility from canned products to 150k tons beverage production which I am not sure if there is synergy. 2 points to consider is the beverage production capacity for the company now and that it took 2 troublesome RMB370m EB to reach where it is now. If you deem that as plausible, so be your conviction.

And to Young Investor as well... I have been as obvious as possible to explain what happened but if you can't get the drift, it's ok. Portuser is right that this discussion cannot be from entities who doesn't know the process. From TTA's perspective the board seat gives them comfort to know the details after... The investment $ is like 1 out of their 2 dozen ships. If my credibility in my posting in past 3.5 years has been of BDO standard, please do feel free to take a discount to what I had posted. I am past that age whereby I can be moved to do irrational things by mere taunting by some faceless forumers. What moves me nowadays is upside / downside analysis.

As I posted before they are having an institutional luncheon tomorrow and latest update is it is postponed. I'm sure someone will ask me to prove or verify which I won't either. Nonetheless their AGM is coming 25 this month so do take time to be fed with insights rather than be fed inside

[CityFarmer]

Moderator Log:

It happened before, but let me put up a reminder. We have seem multiple accounts, which are likely under a same person, base on various evidences. We normally don't act on them, unless they have created confusion, by acting as interacting persons.

We are monitoring their behavior.

Thank you

Regards
Moderator

[Young Investor]

Specuvestor

You did not go for the food! The insiders at AGM were Huang from Sino and Joseph Chia from TTA. Did one of them tell you that TTA did not even do any due diligence?

You said "From TTA's perspective the board seat gives them comfort to know the details after... The investment $ is like 1 out of their 2 dozen ships."

It is unthinkable that Mr Prayudh spent $34.7m without doing any due diligence, and hope that the TTA representative on Sino Board will make sure that things are ok later. It is also unthinkable that he locks up a large number of Sino shares and be interviewed by CNBC, without finding out more.

Is it necessary for you to say "If my credibility in my posting in past 3.5 years has been of BDO standard, please do feel free to take a discount to what I had posted. I am past that age whereby I can be moved to do irrational things by mere taunting by some faceless forumers."

I do not see any taunting. You are merely being asked to state how did you know that TTA didn't even do any due diligence.

[specuvestor]

http://basehitinvesting.com/buffetts-pet...ice-value/

You can quote me that the ex-chair of Petrochina categorically said that he never talked to Buffett during the purchase period

People like heuristically simple yes/ no answers or textbook answers when usually the answer is "it depends" If specuvestor is to buy 1% of the company u can be sure there will be extensive due-diligence. But premier league business owners have different net worth and priority (doesn't mean they are infallible) from us OPMIs

This will be the last I will answer on this. Either you get the real world or you don't. Either you are street smart or you are not (if one is going to ask embarrassing questions during a recorded AGM, don't expect direct answers but learn to read between the lines) I was satisfied with the explanation given which made sense to me

[crubs]

Finally. Long story short -- hearsay from TTA la.

Updated:
reasons to believe that NO due diligence was done by TTA.
1) specuvestor claims that someone told him on the side after the AGM (hearsay from TTA)
2) small investment for TTA so they can afford to invest without any due diligence

reasons to believe that YES, due diligence was done by TTA
1) was publicly said during the AGM (unverifiable too)
2) TTA personally attended the Nanjing Tradeshow -- http://www.nextinsight.net/index.php/sto...trade-fair
3) In 1Q, 2Q and 3Q Sino Grandness was classified as an associate and its income was included in TTAs P&L
4) Sino Grandness made up a substantial portion of TTAs profit in 1Q, 2Q and 3Q --- http://tta.listedcompany.com/slides.html
5) Prayudh is an Honorary Chariman of Sino Grandness (2014 and 2015 AR)
6) TTA is on the Board of Directors (2014 and 2015 AR)
7) They have chose to lock up a portion of their shares in Sino Grandness for 10 years. --http://www.nextinsight.net/index.php/story-archive-mainmenu-60/924-2014/9092-sino-grandness-attracts-two-new-strategic-investors-from-thailand
8) "Officials of the companies had told Parry that only if the 70-year-old Prayudh was satisfied after the taste test would the companies proceed with due diligence on Sino Grandness and consider the proposed share placement." -- http://www.nextinsight.net/index.php/sto...quat-juice

which is the more likely case ?

[kbl]

Good evening everyone.

To crubs, Young Investor and SG diehard fans.

Your $ your call, my $ my call.

<even after Chairman said during AGM categorically that they will pay back all>
So as the head of the company, he did not keep his promise. How are shareholders suppose to trust him again ?

<Debronic San provided some good links on SG>
Why are all you keeping quiet ?

I am not vested and rather take the $ to help orphanages than buy s chips.

Last but not least - Is not a matter who's right but who's left.

<Not Vested>