Are HDB Flats Affordable?

[nsengkia]

How can the head of national population board (or some whatever govt body) not talking to head of HDB (you knw who).

This is a very black or white question. Either both are ignorant of each other intentions (which is real bad!) or both are fully aware and unwilling to think of a way to look ahead and plan ahead. (which is worse!)

I have been puzzling over this for some time myself. I would like to suggest a third more scary thought i.e. both are fully aware but did not factor a major sea change in their planning. One possibility is that they did not expect that there would be so many investors in the market i.e. people who already have one property in hand but have come into the market to purchase another (still under construction) for the purpose of either flipping or renting out.

The triggers for this scenario is the very very low interest rate coupled with an aversion to equity as a form of investment in the mistaken belief that property will always go up.

I am in my late 40s and a number of my contemporaries have bought second houses as an investment. In addition, I do remember the 1997 property crash so do take the advise. What goes up does come down and property is no different.

[kazukirai]

Bro.

The one single prob about the save and invest wisely part is with current housing price, you can bet the returns will be far smaller and the opportunity cost of doing other things with that "market subsidy" value you paid would be far greater.

Somehow I think its a govt ploy to lock a couple down with such exhorbitant pricing.
Sure the older generations are laffing all the way to the banks, but their profits will come from their children and grandchildren.

Talk about karma.

Cheers.

---

Hi Arthur-san,

I agree with your point but the thing I wanted to say is that I think for many people, and this is really just the impression I get from reading of blog, forum posts as well as news articles, is that many people are pretty fixated on buying a house and when they stretch themselves to afford one or can't afford one, they start blaming the government.

Maybe I'm naive but let's say I decide that my allocation to housing as a percentage of my income be 25%. If the monthly instalments to buy a place exceed that, couldn't I (a) rent a house or (b) rent a room or © continue staying with parents first till either (a) my income/wealth increases to that suitable level or (b) property prices come down?

I know I'm going to get a lot of brickbats for saying something like this and people are going to say stuff like "renting isn't cheap either" or "How to start a family when I don't even have my own place?" but I'm not sure ranting against government policies is going to help either.

When it comes to housing, I'm reminded of how my grandfather bought the first house he still lives in till this day. At that time, he had 5 young children, held a very low-paying job (after all he didn't even finish Primary school) and didn't even have the money to pay the downpayment which had to be made in 2 weeks. So, what he did was borrow money for the downpayment and took on two extra jobs in order to make the monthly payments and ends meet.

Did he stretch himself by buying a place he couldn't afford? Probably. But did he blame anyone for the choices he made? No, he didn't. Times have changed and the nature of the property market has changed as well so it's probably meaningless to make a comparison of prices and policies now and then. However, the important lesson that remains is one of self-determination.

PS: I'm not saying that the government is doing a good job. But rather than count on their charity, I rather count on myself.

[arthur]

One possibility is that they did not expect that there would be so many investors in the market i.e. people who already have one property in hand but have come into the market to purchase another (still under construction) for the purpose of either flipping or renting out.

The triggers for this scenario is the very very low interest rate coupled with an aversion to equity as a form of investment in the mistaken belief that property will always go up.

Hi there.

The impression I am getting from those top honchos are that their ears are not onto the ground. I would have thought they have sufficent datas to know increasing no. of ppl are actually buying a 2nd properties in Singapore. And given their "helicopter view" they should have the "far-sighted" planning to send subordinates around to listen what's going on actualy. Of cos some ppl may now be critising me as being everything on hindsight.

But may I remind them that the cries of properties going out of hand happened couple of yrs ago and not recent months that ended with MBT saying it was an "oversight" on his part.

If the govt internet brigade is monitoring these views from forums now (which they are doing) may I suggest that they do some real deep research on how to bring Singapore to the next level instead of pandering to MNCs' Foreign Direct Investments (FDIs) every single day.

Its ridiculous to see Singapore going from 60s to 21st century and still pandering to FDIs without any difference to domestic economic shift.

Why are we still not considering a min wage policy when Hong Kong our closest rival, enacted into legislation recently? Bcos govt scared that MNCs will pack bags and go elsewhere? Why the fear? Bcos our economy is not structured enough to whistand an exodus of FDIs due to lack of innovative population and education. Bcos we export what are other countries' technologies.

We started from a labour based economy to manufacturing based to IT and then now service- intensive.

This is akin to putting all the eggs into one basket, just that thru time time we had changed from salted duck eggs to quail eggs and now, upgraded to Seng Choon's non cholestrol eggs.

When we drop the basket, any freaking eggs will break.

Sorry I am long winded and kinda out of point but I view HDB policy as an intergral part of our nation's economic policy and being a Singaporean, I must do my part and raise questions.
Unfortunately, with my parking summons not paid in time, think I am not good enough to stand for elections.

Cheers.

[Ben]

The impression I am getting from those top honchos are that their ears are not onto the ground. I would have thought they have sufficent datas to know increasing no. of ppl are actually buying a 2nd properties in Singapore. And given their "helicopter view" they should have the "far-sighted" planning to send subordinates around to listen what's going on actualy. Of cos some ppl may now be critising me as being everything on hindsight.

I don't think it is the case of those top honchos not knowing what is happening on the ground. Don't forget, we have a army of top brain, top scholars in all the govt agencies. How can they not know? How can they not tell what is coming? They have all the necessary data they need. Didn't you see them flashing out all sort of data and justification when they want something done? Didn't they always claim that they are working the ground instead of just waiting for election coming to start working? The problem I see is, thought these people are really smart, no one want to stick out their neck and make the first move. What if they are wrong? Why should they risk their high pay job? They rather wait and see until the situation becomes real obvious. By then, it may be too late.

So, as some forumers have pointed out, don't just depend on govt to take care of our future. We should learn to take care of ourselves.

[arthur]

I don't think it is the case of those top honchos not knowing what is happening on the ground. Don't forget, we have a army of top brain, top scholars in all the govt agencies. How can they not know? How can they not tell what is coming? They have all the necessary data they need. Didn't you see them flashing out all sort of data and justification when they want something done? Didn't they always claim that they are working the ground instead of just waiting for election coming to start working?

I am not sure if you have met many of these scholars, but some of them seem to live in an alternate dimension. Truly some of them are brilliant in analysis, but perhaps suffering from a disassociated perspective that all men are living the same lives as them.

So, as some forumers have pointed out, don't just depend on govt to take care of our future. We should learn to take care of ourselves.

Actually I do agree with you and kazukirai on this part. But the prob is we have also been hearing the line "taking care of ourselves bcos govt would not give a free lunch" so much that it smacks of what I called "washing hand" syndrome by our govt on several social issues.
One of which is of cos our housing policy.

Notice how many forumers are really pouring out points on this thread? Few. Yet we are gathering more than 700+ views.
Evidently showing Singaporeans are all waiting to see around for someone to stick out their necks and wait for results except their own necks. All of us know what I am talking about.

This apathetic behaviour is literally killing our country's future.

[tonylim]

[quote='Ben' pid='1859' dateline='1290171637']
I don't think it is the case of those top honchos not knowing what is happening on the ground. Don't forget, we have a army of top brain, top scholars in all the govt agencies. How can they not know? How can they not tell what is coming? They have all the necessary data they need. Didn't you see them flashing out all sort of data and justification when they want something done? Didn't they always claim that they are working the ground instead of just waiting for election coming to start working?

I am not sure if you have met many of these scholars, but some of them seem to live in an alternate dimension. Truly some of them are brilliant in analysis, but perhaps suffering from a disassociated perspective that all men are living the same lives as them.

So, as some forumers have pointed out, don't just depend on govt to take care of our future. We should learn to take care of ourselves.

Actually I do agree with you and kazukirai on this part. But the prob is we have also been hearing the line "taking care of ourselves bcos govt would not give a free lunch" so much that it smacks of what I called "washing hand" syndrome by our govt on several social issues.
One of which is of cos our housing policy.

Notice how many forumers are really pouring out points on this thread? Few. Yet we are gathering more than 700+ views.
Evidently showing Singaporeans are all waiting to see around for someone to stick out their necks and wait for results except their own necks. All of us know what I am talking about.

This apathetic behaviour is literally killing our country's future.

Fully agree.
I remember a priest said this in a Mass; Many pray and ask the Lord, 'We are short of priest ,please give us more priests but not from my sons '.

[Musicwhiz]

To reply to Arthur,

Yes in fact I agree that many scholars are living in so-called "Ivory Towers", where they argue over theories and concepts which are far removed from what is actually happening on the ground. Like what you say, they may be academically intelligent but are unable to translate this intelligence to solve the bread and butter issues on the ground. Hence, this results in a disconnect between the "elite" and the man on the street. As a result, resentment brews as the man on the street feels helpless and it's as if these scholars are being "overpaid" to perpetuate problems, rather than solve them.

I guess the problem of not speaking up has become endemic in our society, as witnessed by the numerous cases of foreigners who have been sued or jailed for voicing out their opinions. The most recent case which needs no further mentioning is that of Alan Shadrake. This creates a climate of fear and gives the impression that the Government does not and will not tolerate dissenting views, no matter how well they may contribute to nation-building and improving the welfare of the common citizen. This is why we see so few real "arguments" within this thread, even though many view. Incidentally, this occurs at opposition rallies as well - throngs of people turn up to watch and cheer, but when it is time to vote, the incumbent party still gets 66.67% of the votes.

Indeed, the reason why the Government is "importing" so many foreigners is due to the dearth of good and creative ideas from our own citizens. Sadly, the problem seems to be one of policy, and so it is unlikely we can stop this "brain drain" anytime soon as more and more disillusioned citizens leave our shores for greener overseas pastures.

[Ben]

How many people know that HDB Corp was sold to Temasek in 2004? I guess not many. I didn't know about this until last night when one of my friends told me this. Is that one of the reason why HDB price is so high now?

http://www.temasekholdings.com.sg/news_r...1_2004.htm

[kazukirai]

How many people know that HDB Corp was sold to Temasek in 2004? I guess not many. I didn't know about this until last night when one of my friends told me this. Is that one of the reason why HDB price is so high now?

http://www.temasekholdings.com.sg/news_r...1_2004.htm

I don't get it. Then how does that square with the line in the first para?

The sale is in line with HDB's ongoing efforts to focus on its core role as the public housing authority in Singapore.

How can public housing (which by very definition of a public good) be profit-making? If it isn't, then why is Temasek buying it? It can't be either. So far, it looks like HDB is striving to be 'for-profit' rather than be a provider of public housing.

Also, before we jump to wrong conclusions, HDB corp refers to HDB the stat board right? And not some subsidary that's in charge of overseas ventures or the likes?

[yeokiwi]

If I am not wrong, HDB corp that was taken over by Temasek is now called Surbana.

"Surbana is an international consultancy and township development company offering a full suite of building and infrastructure solutions."
www.surbana.com

HDB used to have architects, civil engineers, mechanical engineers, electrical engineers etc under it for inhouse township design and development. These people are now moved to Surbana.

HDB is currently left with administrative, maintenance and corporate services with little technical expertise. If they need technical expertise, they will buy from Surbana.

I think many of the BTO flats are designed by Surbana.