Riots in Little India

(11-12-2013, 02:41 PM)Temperament Wrote:

(11-12-2013, 01:45 PM)Some-one Wrote:

(11-12-2013, 12:58 PM)specuvestor Wrote:

(10-12-2013, 07:00 PM)Some-one Wrote:

(10-12-2013, 03:38 PM)specuvestor Wrote: Those committing the acts are non juveniles who travelled miles to earn a living. These are unlikely spur of the moment but suppressed angst. We now know that this is actually an "internal affair". The pte bus is actually a hired bus from their Avery Lodge Dorm. They were angry with the death of a co-worker rather than some anonymous person on the street.

Why they turn onto the police and ambulance is the bigger issue. I don't think it is just a "simply" case. Mohamed Bouazizi is not an isolated case either. I don't think we should blame the government for everything under the sun nor be anti-FW at this point, but IMHO this is a symptom of the problem of having huge influx of FW without considering carefully the consequences. Ditto for casinos and the 6.9m population white paper.

This is a value forum, so we should probably be able to rationally whether there is something fundamentally wrong with the policies. When principles are wrong, things can go very wrong.

Well, don't you think there is a lot of assumptions from you? You are saying that it is a suppressed angst. How do you know? Your own experience or you actually know the workers? You are saying that in your opinion, it is a symptom of having huge influx. How do you know? I'm fine if you keep it as your opinion but without knowing anything, let's not assume so many things and just listen quietly to the news.

It is this type of assumption that cause a lot of conflicts. No one knows except the workers themselves. You can claim that the government is bluffing you on all aspects. That is your choice. If there are no trust, nothing people say would change your interpretation.

One more thing. Since you link it to value forum which is related to value investing. Isn't it true that hindsight is always 100% correct?

I will also assume we are having a rational discussion here

Assumptions are not wrong by itself as long as 1) reasonable 2) not misguided. Assuming Iraq has WMD was a reasonable assumption as Rumsfeld and Saddam was best of pals and US been supplying Iraq most of their weapons... but it was misguided. Assuming a value trap stock is deep value is well guided by financials but unreasonable when one doesn't look at the management and major shareholders' track record to OPMI.
Again, let me say that assumption is neither right nor wrong. It is right because you think is right. An assumption can be proven wrong. Of course, if one denies that it is wrong and stick to his own judgement. Nothing would help.

As value investors we have the skill set to separate noise from facts. As posted by others there were a lot of misinformation based on my memory:
Yes, we do. We have the skill set to separate but do we know what is noise and what is fact? A fact is only true if it is proven. Otherwise, it is just opinion without facts.

1) Chinese speeding bus driver hit indian man
>> To my memory. There has never been a chinese speeding bus driver. I don't know where you get this information from.

2) Bangladeshi worker died and riot by Bangladesh (which was interesting because the Bangladeshi Consulate denied and clarified few times)
>> To my memory, I read that a foreign worker was knocked down. Again, I don't know where you get this information

3) Singaporean bus hit foreign worker
4) 400 drunk rioters
To my memory, it is only rioters and not drunken rioters.

These misinformation sensationalises news but helps nothing, but flame misinformation, fear and hatred.

>> I guess I have already say that since we do not know anything, let's just keep watch and listen to the news. If that is what you think in the first place, there would not have been so much misinformation which you claim. You can just filter off and continue to do your other things.

What we know now is that it was an "internal issue" ie the bus was chartered by Avery Lodge to send their OWN workers back. The attack on the bus and bus driver and conductor was to avenge their own co-worker who just a minute ago was chased out the bus and now under it. It is likely to be compounded by the impatient bus-driver (another assumption if u take the 6pm buses u can visualise what transpired. No offence to bus drivers as they have their own frustrations and KPIs... the conductor was noted as a time-keeper) Frankly I am not surprised if any of us in this forum would have been so angry as to hit or scream at the driver for causing the death. If the attack is constrained to the bus, then it is simply mob justice.

But the attack on the ambulance and police indicates something deeper. As per posted, the wealth divide and affluence works both ways, the foreigner workers vs Singaporeans, and also Singaporeans towards the uber rich. The election results clearly show the latter and the govt is adjusting. I think most people here underestimate PAP's concern... they are not stupid, but they are willing to take a policy bet on the 6.9m population which is backfiring.
>> Again, you are saying that it is indicating something deeper. Is that so? Or is that what you think is so? Do you have all the correct information on your hand? Also, let us just stick to topic and not navigate it away to politics.

This is not hindside. I have posted in various thread that a pure capitalistic model advocated by Goh and enshrined as Singapore Inc will not work as social backlash will come. From SMRT to SBS to now the riot. Those who believe in pure capitalistic model have not studied history. Even the Woodstock for Capitalists Buffett do not believe in it.

>> Let us just not go into politics in a thread that is talking about riots. You got your own vote. I got my own vote. Let us just respect the electorate.

And I am no prophet, these are as foreseeable as the bust in Blumont if we remian rational amidst the noise. Question is nobody knows when and everyone likes to make hay while the sun still shines. The govt under LHL knows this and they are adjusting but the brain-wash by Goh era will take some time for people to realise that non-quality GDP growth is not sustainable. The principle itself is wrong. I hope Singaporeans and the leaders will realise it sooner rather than later, before our efforts in the past 50 years go down the drain

>> Again, you are linking it to politics. See above. Let's just keep to the thread itself. what I can only say is that if it is as forseeable, there would not be so many people taking losses on Blumont.

As written above. Definitely, it can be a rational discussion but it cannot be assumed that there would be a rational discussion.

But i learn from Simple Simon:-
Iif you put your hand behind your head and touch your nose, you will realise at the end of the day, it's money(livelihood) and politics man.

What?
Talking about the Riot only?
And only Riot?

How can a human beings not be political?
We human are all political animals through and through.
If not how can G existed in the 1st place?
NB:-
Is there such things as Clean Politics and Dirty politics?
i am not sure until today leh.

Again, let me just say that this topic is about rioting in Little India. Mixing politics in the equation just complicates the whole thread. Each of us have our own grievance to address and writing in a forum like this would not be useful. I have seen how politics can ruin a perfectly good thread.

How can a human being not be political? I, for one, is not political and I am still a human being. The electorate consists of the whole of Singapore, not only you and I. If the electorate has decided, let's just keep it this way until the next election.

(11-12-2013, 04:17 PM)egghead Wrote: That will be another scenario. Human survival instinct will take over.

hi Egghead san,

to sumup-I m disappointed with the nine mata matas.

(11-12-2013, 04:20 PM)HitandRun Wrote:

(11-12-2013, 02:50 PM)Temperament Wrote:

(11-12-2013, 02:29 PM)kbl Wrote:

(11-12-2013, 02:20 PM)egghead Wrote: I can accept normal people trying to stay alive even for soldiers at the front line war zone when they are out-numbered. As the Chinese saying goes - 留得青山在不怕没柴烧。

hi Egghead san,

**Running away from a crowd when you are armed and wearing a uniform is an absolute disgrace to your colleagues.**
**Even if need to withdraw from the scene, they should have walked away calmly and in a dignify manner.**

i disagree.
i think they should try to protect the Bus Driver and Bus Lady Attendent in the 1st place. If need to fire warning shots in the air, so be it. Maybe we can not blame them if they are not trained to handle Riot. Blame the Upstair lol. Remember for 40 years we have no Riot.

Wah.... Kbl san and Uncle temperament

You guys watch too much Rambo / Die Hard / etc liao.

Most policeman will not like to fire their weapons (I know because I used to know quite a few of them in one of my previous jobs), although practise at range will shoot until fingers swollen.

Nobody needs a hero in this type of situation, especially a dead one. What happens if the mob decides to lynch the hero?

In fact, I'm quite happy with the outcome (Other than the FW who was unfortunately run over by the bus. From the facts disclosed, it is probably safe to conclude contributory negligence).

Nobody got seriously injured, only some property is damaged, which can easily be replaced.

Good noon HitandRun san,

lucky FT open the door for them...if not they would have been burnt to death

(11-12-2013, 04:20 PM)Some-one Wrote:

(11-12-2013, 02:41 PM)Temperament Wrote:

(11-12-2013, 01:45 PM)Some-one Wrote:

(11-12-2013, 12:58 PM)specuvestor Wrote:

(10-12-2013, 07:00 PM)Some-one Wrote: Well, don't you think there is a lot of assumptions from you? You are saying that it is a suppressed angst. How do you know? Your own experience or you actually know the workers? You are saying that in your opinion, it is a symptom of having huge influx. How do you know? I'm fine if you keep it as your opinion but without knowing anything, let's not assume so many things and just listen quietly to the news.

It is this type of assumption that cause a lot of conflicts. No one knows except the workers themselves. You can claim that the government is bluffing you on all aspects. That is your choice. If there are no trust, nothing people say would change your interpretation.

One more thing. Since you link it to value forum which is related to value investing. Isn't it true that hindsight is always 100% correct?

I will also assume we are having a rational discussion here

Assumptions are not wrong by itself as long as 1) reasonable 2) not misguided. Assuming Iraq has WMD was a reasonable assumption as Rumsfeld and Saddam was best of pals and US been supplying Iraq most of their weapons... but it was misguided. Assuming a value trap stock is deep value is well guided by financials but unreasonable when one doesn't look at the management and major shareholders' track record to OPMI.
Again, let me say that assumption is neither right nor wrong. It is right because you think is right. An assumption can be proven wrong. Of course, if one denies that it is wrong and stick to his own judgement. Nothing would help.

As value investors we have the skill set to separate noise from facts. As posted by others there were a lot of misinformation based on my memory:
Yes, we do. We have the skill set to separate but do we know what is noise and what is fact? A fact is only true if it is proven. Otherwise, it is just opinion without facts.

1) Chinese speeding bus driver hit indian man
>> To my memory. There has never been a chinese speeding bus driver. I don't know where you get this information from.

2) Bangladeshi worker died and riot by Bangladesh (which was interesting because the Bangladeshi Consulate denied and clarified few times)
>> To my memory, I read that a foreign worker was knocked down. Again, I don't know where you get this information

3) Singaporean bus hit foreign worker
4) 400 drunk rioters
To my memory, it is only rioters and not drunken rioters.

These misinformation sensationalises news but helps nothing, but flame misinformation, fear and hatred.

>> I guess I have already say that since we do not know anything, let's just keep watch and listen to the news. If that is what you think in the first place, there would not have been so much misinformation which you claim. You can just filter off and continue to do your other things.

What we know now is that it was an "internal issue" ie the bus was chartered by Avery Lodge to send their OWN workers back. The attack on the bus and bus driver and conductor was to avenge their own co-worker who just a minute ago was chased out the bus and now under it. It is likely to be compounded by the impatient bus-driver (another assumption if u take the 6pm buses u can visualise what transpired. No offence to bus drivers as they have their own frustrations and KPIs... the conductor was noted as a time-keeper) Frankly I am not surprised if any of us in this forum would have been so angry as to hit or scream at the driver for causing the death. If the attack is constrained to the bus, then it is simply mob justice.

But the attack on the ambulance and police indicates something deeper. As per posted, the wealth divide and affluence works both ways, the foreigner workers vs Singaporeans, and also Singaporeans towards the uber rich. The election results clearly show the latter and the govt is adjusting. I think most people here underestimate PAP's concern... they are not stupid, but they are willing to take a policy bet on the 6.9m population which is backfiring.
>> Again, you are saying that it is indicating something deeper. Is that so? Or is that what you think is so? Do you have all the correct information on your hand? Also, let us just stick to topic and not navigate it away to politics.

This is not hindside. I have posted in various thread that a pure capitalistic model advocated by Goh and enshrined as Singapore Inc will not work as social backlash will come. From SMRT to SBS to now the riot. Those who believe in pure capitalistic model have not studied history. Even the Woodstock for Capitalists Buffett do not believe in it.

>> Let us just not go into politics in a thread that is talking about riots. You got your own vote. I got my own vote. Let us just respect the electorate.

And I am no prophet, these are as foreseeable as the bust in Blumont if we remian rational amidst the noise. Question is nobody knows when and everyone likes to make hay while the sun still shines. The govt under LHL knows this and they are adjusting but the brain-wash by Goh era will take some time for people to realise that non-quality GDP growth is not sustainable. The principle itself is wrong. I hope Singaporeans and the leaders will realise it sooner rather than later, before our efforts in the past 50 years go down the drain

>> Again, you are linking it to politics. See above. Let's just keep to the thread itself. what I can only say is that if it is as forseeable, there would not be so many people taking losses on Blumont.

As written above. Definitely, it can be a rational discussion but it cannot be assumed that there would be a rational discussion.

But i learn from Simple Simon:-
Iif you put your hand behind your head and touch your nose, you will realise at the end of the day, it's money(livelihood) and politics man.

What?
Talking about the Riot only?
And only Riot?

How can a human beings not be political?
We human are all political animals through and through.
If not how can G existed in the 1st place?
NB:-
Is there such things as Clean Politics and Dirty politics?
i am not sure until today leh.

Again, let me just say that this topic is about rioting in Little India. Mixing politics in the equation just complicates the whole thread. Each of us have our own grievance to address and writing in a forum like this would not be useful. I have seen how politics can ruin a perfectly good thread.

How can a human being not be political? I, for one, is not political and I am still a human being. The electorate consists of the whole of Singapore, not only you and I. If the electorate has decided, let's just keep it this way until the next election.

Ha! Ha!
If not political, why are you worrying?
By participating here, you already show you are political.
You are trying to make us buy your view, isn't it?

AND
You said:-
"The electorate consists of the whole of Singapore, not only you and I. If the electorate has decided, let's just keep it this way until the next election."
Unquote:

So are you saying, we all should leave our brains behind after every GE for 5 years no matter what happens in our beloved Singapore?
(Of course we have too in a manner. Unless there is a By-Election within this 5 years )
But can't we, as Singaporeans have the rights to comment or show our displeasure on G's policies if they affect our lives adversely?
i am really sorry i don't understand your thinking, here.

The fact that Some-one cannot comprehend how Blumont is foreseeable or Little India riot is linked to policies render our discussion fruitless.

He is entitled to his opinions in his discrete world and I am entitled to my rational posts where events have a catalyst, which I think my posts in aggregate and historically has not been deemed nonsensical nor sensational I hope.

The next few weeks when tempers calm we will see what transpired, and whether my mosiac effort is right or just false assumptions

(11-12-2013, 04:26 PM)kbl Wrote:

(11-12-2013, 04:20 PM)HitandRun Wrote:

(11-12-2013, 02:50 PM)Temperament Wrote:

(11-12-2013, 02:29 PM)kbl Wrote:

(11-12-2013, 02:20 PM)egghead Wrote: I can accept normal people trying to stay alive even for soldiers at the front line war zone when they are out-numbered. As the Chinese saying goes - 留得青山在不怕没柴烧。

hi Egghead san,

**Running away from a crowd when you are armed and wearing a uniform is an absolute disgrace to your colleagues.**
**Even if need to withdraw from the scene, they should have walked away calmly and in a dignify manner.**

i disagree.
i think they should try to protect the Bus Driver and Bus Lady Attendent in the 1st place. If need to fire warning shots in the air, so be it. Maybe we can not blame them if they are not trained to handle Riot. Blame the Upstair lol. Remember for 40 years we have no Riot.

Wah.... Kbl san and Uncle temperament

You guys watch too much Rambo / Die Hard / etc liao.

Most policeman will not like to fire their weapons (I know because I used to know quite a few of them in one of my previous jobs), although practise at range will shoot until fingers swollen.

Nobody needs a hero in this type of situation, especially a dead one. What happens if the mob decides to lynch the hero?

In fact, I'm quite happy with the outcome (Other than the FW who was unfortunately run over by the bus. From the facts disclosed, it is probably safe to conclude contributory negligence).

Nobody got seriously injured, only some property is damaged, which can easily be replaced.

Good noon HitandRun san,

lucky FT open the door for them...if not they would have been burnt to death

Well, it seems sufficient coverage on the topic. Different views were well presented, and further discussion is not necessary. The topic may be escalated out of its context if continue

Let's close this topic. Further post on this topic will be removed.

Thanks

Regards
Moderator

(11-12-2013, 04:49 PM)CityFarmer Wrote: Well, it seems sufficient coverage on the topic. Different views were well presented, and further discussion is not necessary. The topic may be escalated out of its context if continue

Let's close this topic. Further post on this topic will be removed.

Thanks

Regards
Moderator

Hi CityFarmer

I am the threadstarter so hopefully I could also be allowed to voice my viewpoint on this thread before it closes as the admin deems fit.

When I open up a thread on this, I expected a huge response. Indeed 16 pages and 8000+ views are not little.
The reason why I started this thread is to enable all of us, the forum community to have a feel, a knowledge of how the typical Singaporean feel about this incident.

Throughout this course of 4 days, we saw many sided responses. Some urging keep calm and move on, others advocating a stronger response while some even pulling in political links into this.

As the threadstarter, I felt I should not add anything but let the community see and read for themselves what are the common views.

I for one, know absolutely that there are political parties actually looking at this forum (main and oppostion) as well as several journalists hoping to scoop some news out.

For a local Singapore citizen, who serve his army dutifully and ate from the old army cooks "all in one" meals, I feel very sad that our country is developing into such a state.

Not just these foreign incidents, (PRC bus drivers on strike, Indian riots, foreginers beating up people with no news after), but also the segregation of community views as within this thread.

What I fear most for Singapore isn't that we are not resourceful enough to overcome obstacles but that the true Singaporeans are getting divided and apathetic.
We may never survive a serious calamity when the day comes. The well off, educated ones will simply move off leaving the weaker ones behind. That could jolly well be the demise of our nation. Not a single bullet needs to be fired.

I have read some threads explicitly pointing at myself that I should not be one of those "hoping Singapore to burn". I am NOT. However, to sit back and see all these developments going on actually pain my heart.

These incidents aren't one-off and will happen again, esp with the 8 million population that is subtly being raised repeatedly.

We are still continously heading down the wrong direction.

I expect there would be some smart alecky remarks soon.

Thank you admins.

(11-12-2013, 04:49 PM)CityFarmer Wrote:

(11-12-2013, 04:26 PM)kbl Wrote:

(11-12-2013, 04:20 PM)HitandRun Wrote:

(11-12-2013, 02:50 PM)Temperament Wrote:

(11-12-2013, 02:29 PM)kbl Wrote: hi Egghead san,

**Running away from a crowd when you are armed and wearing a uniform is an absolute disgrace to your colleagues.**
**Even if need to withdraw from the scene, they should have walked away calmly and in a dignify manner.**

i disagree.
i think they should try to protect the Bus Driver and Bus Lady Attendent in the 1st place. If need to fire warning shots in the air, so be it. Maybe we can not blame them if they are not trained to handle Riot. Blame the Upstair lol. Remember for 40 years we have no Riot.

Wah.... Kbl san and Uncle temperament

You guys watch too much Rambo / Die Hard / etc liao.

Most policeman will not like to fire their weapons (I know because I used to know quite a few of them in one of my previous jobs), although practise at range will shoot until fingers swollen.

Nobody needs a hero in this type of situation, especially a dead one. What happens if the mob decides to lynch the hero?

In fact, I'm quite happy with the outcome (Other than the FW who was unfortunately run over by the bus. From the facts disclosed, it is probably safe to conclude contributory negligence).

Nobody got seriously injured, only some property is damaged, which can easily be replaced.

Good noon HitandRun san,

lucky FT open the door for them...if not they would have been burnt to death

Well, it seems sufficient coverage on the topic. Different views were well presented, and further discussion is not necessary. The topic may be escalated out of its context if continue

Let's close this topic. Further post on this topic will be removed.

Thanks

Regards
Moderator

I would like to clarify that the topic been closed is the one related to the topic of "men-in-blue run away from the riot", which was shown in a youtube clip.

Other topics should be OK, and the truth of the riot remains to be known. The COI will disclose more detail in near future.

My apologies for the confusion.

Regards
Moderator

More info from the Ministry of Home Affairs...

DPM Teo reveals first-hand accounts of SOC troopers who tackled riot

SINGAPORE — Deputy Prime Minister and Home Affairs Minister Teo Chee Hean has given details of the first-hand accounts that were related to him by the Special Operations Command (SOC) troopers deployed to tackle the riot at Little India on Sunday (Dec 8).

In a Facebook post today, Mr Teo said the troopers had told him that they knew they were going into a “very hot” situation and were mentally prepared.

When they arrived at the scene, they immediately linked up with the commander and officers of the police divisions already on site, made a quick assessment of the situation together and decided on the appropriate operational response.

He said their objective was to disperse the crowd and control the situation.

The SOC deployed its troopers with full protective gear, shields and batons in a measured show of force, but refrained from using anti-riot gas or other weapons unless needed as a last resort.

Mr Teo said they related that they had formed up at their assigned locations and advanced towards the crowd steadily in a coordinated way to channel and disperse them, and they were backed up by colleagues from the police divisions.

Seeing the SOC officers advance, the crowd began to back off while continuing to pelt the advancing troopers with concrete pieces, bricks and bottles.

A couple of troopers were injured, but they all kept their discipline and cohesion.

The troopers succeeded in dispersing the rioters and arrested several of them without escalating or prolonging the situation.

There were also minimum injuries to rioters and bystanders.

Mr Teo emphasised that the SOC troopers had encountered real-life situations dealing with unruly and violent groups, but not on that scale.

They had faced such situations in training and this prepared them to deal with the situation.

He said that in the team, there were also some young troopers, including full-time National Servicemen (NSFs) who had recently graduated from their course, and they carried out their duties well. CHANNEL NEWSASIA
http://www.todayonline.com/singapore/dpm...epage=true

More info from the general public...

Good Samaritan captured on YouTube helping to stop riot

SINGAPORE — A few days after the riot at Little India took place, more people are giving accounts of foreign workers who lent a helping hand amidst the chaos, reported Channel NewsAsia.

Perhaps the most talked about good Samaritan is a man in a chequered shirt, said CNA. He was captured on a YouTube video, trying to stop some people from rioting on Sunday night (Dec 8).

The owner of a coffee shop frequented by foreign workers in Little India claims he was a regular customer and was likely from Chennai, India.

He said he believed the man was around 35 years old, married and had a two-year-old daughter in India. However, he declined to share his name and said he does not know where he worked.

Mr Mateen Ahmed, owner of coffee shop Spice Box, said: “He comes often ... weekends, weekdays, also he comes. (He) buys food from us. Very good guy.

“I’ve been here for eight years, so I’m seeing him from that time only. (He’s a) very good guy, very good-natured.

“Sometimes if I walk outside, he’s sitting outside ... he’ll come hug me, pull my cheeks. The past three days I didn’t see him — he didn’t come. Maybe, working?”

Mr Mateen also shared with Channel NewsAsia CCTV footage of the night the riot broke out, adding that many of his regular customers who are foreign workers responded quickly to help the shop.

Mr Mateen said: “When the riot started, a lot of people from the roadside, they come, they pick up the chairs, tables, to throw at the bus.

“Then the workers, customers eating here, the regular customers, they help us bring everything inside, all the chairs, tables, close the shutters.

“Then the bottles down there ... they are all throwing, pelting it. The workers help us to put everything inside.” CHANNEL NEWSASIA
http://www.todayonline.com/singapore/goo...-stop-riot