Riots in Little India

(10-12-2013, 07:00 PM)Some-one Wrote:

(10-12-2013, 03:38 PM)specuvestor Wrote:

(10-12-2013, 01:38 PM)Some-one Wrote:

(10-12-2013, 09:29 AM)NTL Wrote: I don't understand why this thread becomes anti-policy or anti-FT/FW. This is simply a case where people get too rowdy and forget that they are in Singapore.

If you still don't understand how it can happen, please visit the area at 9pm during weekend.

I don't know why but I feel the net is getting worse and worse. That is the price of too much freedom. Imagine what would happen if the same freedom is given in real life? Fortunately, in the real world, there are law to control. Simple things as written by you can escalate into anti-*. Luckily you are here in VB and not some other places.

Those committing the acts are non juveniles who travelled miles to earn a living. These are unlikely spur of the moment but suppressed angst. We now know that this is actually an "internal affair". The pte bus is actually a hired bus from their Avery Lodge Dorm. They were angry with the death of a co-worker rather than some anonymous person on the street.

Why they turn onto the police and ambulance is the bigger issue. I don't think it is just a "simply" case. Mohamed Bouazizi is not an isolated case either. I don't think we should blame the government for everything under the sun nor be anti-FW at this point, but IMHO this is a symptom of the problem of having huge influx of FW without considering carefully the consequences. Ditto for casinos and the 6.9m population white paper.

This is a value forum, so we should probably be able to rationally whether there is something fundamentally wrong with the policies. When principles are wrong, things can go very wrong.

Well, don't you think there is a lot of assumptions from you? You are saying that it is a suppressed angst. How do you know? Your own experience or you actually know the workers? You are saying that in your opinion, it is a symptom of having huge influx. How do you know? I'm fine if you keep it as your opinion but without knowing anything, let's not assume so many things and just listen quietly to the news.

It is this type of assumption that cause a lot of conflicts. No one knows except the workers themselves. You can claim that the government is bluffing you on all aspects. That is your choice. If there are no trust, nothing people say would change your interpretation.

One more thing. Since you link it to value forum which is related to value investing. Isn't it true that hindsight is always 100% correct?

I will also assume we are having a rational discussion here

Assumptions are not wrong by itself as long as 1) reasonable 2) not misguided. Assuming Iraq has WMD was a reasonable assumption as Rumsfeld and Saddam was best of pals and US been supplying Iraq most of their weapons... but it was misguided. Assuming a value trap stock is deep value is well guided by financials but unreasonable when one doesn't look at the management and major shareholders' track record to OPMI.

As value investors we have the skill set to separate noise from facts. As posted by others there were a lot of misinformation based on my memory:

1) Chinese speeding bus driver hit indian man
2) Bangladeshi worker died and riot by Bangladesh (which was interesting because the Bangladeshi Consulate denied and clarified few times)
3) Singaporean bus hit foreign worker
4) 400 drunk rioters

These misinformation sensationalises news but helps nothing, but flame misinformation, fear and hatred.

What we know now is that it was an "internal issue" ie the bus was chartered by Avery Lodge to send their OWN workers back. The attack on the bus and bus driver and conductor was to avenge their own co-worker who just a minute ago was chased out the bus and now under it. It is likely to be compounded by the impatient bus-driver (another assumption if u take the 6pm buses u can visualise what transpired. No offence to bus drivers as they have their own frustrations and KPIs... the conductor was noted as a time-keeper) Frankly I am not surprised if any of us in this forum would have been so angry as to hit or scream at the driver for causing the death. If the attack is constrained to the bus, then it is simply mob justice.

But the attack on the ambulance and police indicates something deeper. As per posted, the wealth divide and affluence works both ways, the foreigner workers vs Singaporeans, and also Singaporeans towards the uber rich. The election results clearly show the latter and the govt is adjusting. I think most people here underestimate PAP's concern... they are not stupid, but they are willing to take a policy bet on the 6.9m population which is backfiring.

This is not hindside. I have posted in various thread that a pure capitalistic model advocated by Goh and enshrined as Singapore Inc will not work as social backlash will come. From SMRT to SBS to now the riot. Those who believe in pure capitalistic model have not studied history. Even the Woodstock for Capitalists Buffett do not believe in it.

And I am no prophet, these are as foreseeable as the bust in Blumont if we remian rational amidst the noise. Question is nobody knows when and everyone likes to make hay while the sun still shines. The govt under LHL knows this and they are adjusting but the brain-wash by Goh era will take some time for people to realise that non-quality GDP growth is not sustainable. The principle itself is wrong. I hope Singaporeans and the leaders will realise it sooner rather than later, before our efforts in the past 50 years go down the drain

Our leaders said they are capable to integration them .

(11-12-2013, 11:31 AM)countonme Wrote: Perhaps the strike by the cina bus drivers should have warned them of the real issues.

So you know what is the real issue in this riot?

(11-12-2013, 11:31 AM)countonme Wrote: It not good to have a convenent excuse and blame on alcohol alone.

I've followed the news and statements but so far have not heard anyone saying that alcohol alone is to blame. Who are you referring to? Why would a COI be ordered if alcohol is the answer? Oh I know - it must be for wayang.

(11-12-2013, 11:31 AM)countonme Wrote: Unfortunately from the media, we w jus hear one side of the story.

Sweeping statement. Did you watch Talking Point on Monday?

(11-12-2013, 12:57 PM)kbl Wrote: shake head. why men-in-blue fleeing like ..........

Put yourself in their shoes and tell me what you would have done.

Some political leader like MP Tin PL already said this was just another isolated incident, so shouldn't create storm in a tea cup.

(11-12-2013, 12:58 PM)specuvestor Wrote:

(10-12-2013, 07:00 PM)Some-one Wrote:

(10-12-2013, 03:38 PM)specuvestor Wrote:

(10-12-2013, 01:38 PM)Some-one Wrote:

(10-12-2013, 09:29 AM)NTL Wrote: I don't understand why this thread becomes anti-policy or anti-FT/FW. This is simply a case where people get too rowdy and forget that they are in Singapore.

If you still don't understand how it can happen, please visit the area at 9pm during weekend.

I don't know why but I feel the net is getting worse and worse. That is the price of too much freedom. Imagine what would happen if the same freedom is given in real life? Fortunately, in the real world, there are law to control. Simple things as written by you can escalate into anti-*. Luckily you are here in VB and not some other places.

Those committing the acts are non juveniles who travelled miles to earn a living. These are unlikely spur of the moment but suppressed angst. We now know that this is actually an "internal affair". The pte bus is actually a hired bus from their Avery Lodge Dorm. They were angry with the death of a co-worker rather than some anonymous person on the street.

Why they turn onto the police and ambulance is the bigger issue. I don't think it is just a "simply" case. Mohamed Bouazizi is not an isolated case either. I don't think we should blame the government for everything under the sun nor be anti-FW at this point, but IMHO this is a symptom of the problem of having huge influx of FW without considering carefully the consequences. Ditto for casinos and the 6.9m population white paper.

This is a value forum, so we should probably be able to rationally whether there is something fundamentally wrong with the policies. When principles are wrong, things can go very wrong.

Well, don't you think there is a lot of assumptions from you? You are saying that it is a suppressed angst. How do you know? Your own experience or you actually know the workers? You are saying that in your opinion, it is a symptom of having huge influx. How do you know? I'm fine if you keep it as your opinion but without knowing anything, let's not assume so many things and just listen quietly to the news.

It is this type of assumption that cause a lot of conflicts. No one knows except the workers themselves. You can claim that the government is bluffing you on all aspects. That is your choice. If there are no trust, nothing people say would change your interpretation.

One more thing. Since you link it to value forum which is related to value investing. Isn't it true that hindsight is always 100% correct?

I will also assume we are having a rational discussion here

Assumptions are not wrong by itself as long as 1) reasonable 2) not misguided. Assuming Iraq has WMD was a reasonable assumption as Rumsfeld and Saddam was best of pals and US been supplying Iraq most of their weapons... but it was misguided. Assuming a value trap stock is deep value is well guided by financials but unreasonable when one doesn't look at the management and major shareholders' track record to OPMI.
Again, let me say that assumption is neither right nor wrong. It is right because you think is right. An assumption can be proven wrong. Of course, if one denies that it is wrong and stick to his own judgement. Nothing would help.

As value investors we have the skill set to separate noise from facts. As posted by others there were a lot of misinformation based on my memory:
Yes, we do. We have the skill set to separate but do we know what is noise and what is fact? A fact is only true if it is proven. Otherwise, it is just opinion without facts.

1) Chinese speeding bus driver hit indian man
>> To my memory. There has never been a chinese speeding bus driver. I don't know where you get this information from.

2) Bangladeshi worker died and riot by Bangladesh (which was interesting because the Bangladeshi Consulate denied and clarified few times)
>> To my memory, I read that a foreign worker was knocked down. Again, I don't know where you get this information

3) Singaporean bus hit foreign worker
4) 400 drunk rioters
To my memory, it is only rioters and not drunken rioters.

These misinformation sensationalises news but helps nothing, but flame misinformation, fear and hatred.

>> I guess I have already say that since we do not know anything, let's just keep watch and listen to the news. If that is what you think in the first place, there would not have been so much misinformation which you claim. You can just filter off and continue to do your other things.

What we know now is that it was an "internal issue" ie the bus was chartered by Avery Lodge to send their OWN workers back. The attack on the bus and bus driver and conductor was to avenge their own co-worker who just a minute ago was chased out the bus and now under it. It is likely to be compounded by the impatient bus-driver (another assumption if u take the 6pm buses u can visualise what transpired. No offence to bus drivers as they have their own frustrations and KPIs... the conductor was noted as a time-keeper) Frankly I am not surprised if any of us in this forum would have been so angry as to hit or scream at the driver for causing the death. If the attack is constrained to the bus, then it is simply mob justice.

But the attack on the ambulance and police indicates something deeper. As per posted, the wealth divide and affluence works both ways, the foreigner workers vs Singaporeans, and also Singaporeans towards the uber rich. The election results clearly show the latter and the govt is adjusting. I think most people here underestimate PAP's concern... they are not stupid, but they are willing to take a policy bet on the 6.9m population which is backfiring.
>> Again, you are saying that it is indicating something deeper. Is that so? Or is that what you think is so? Do you have all the correct information on your hand? Also, let us just stick to topic and not navigate it away to politics.

This is not hindside. I have posted in various thread that a pure capitalistic model advocated by Goh and enshrined as Singapore Inc will not work as social backlash will come. From SMRT to SBS to now the riot. Those who believe in pure capitalistic model have not studied history. Even the Woodstock for Capitalists Buffett do not believe in it.

>> Let us just not go into politics in a thread that is talking about riots. You got your own vote. I got my own vote. Let us just respect the electorate.

And I am no prophet, these are as foreseeable as the bust in Blumont if we remian rational amidst the noise. Question is nobody knows when and everyone likes to make hay while the sun still shines. The govt under LHL knows this and they are adjusting but the brain-wash by Goh era will take some time for people to realise that non-quality GDP growth is not sustainable. The principle itself is wrong. I hope Singaporeans and the leaders will realise it sooner rather than later, before our efforts in the past 50 years go down the drain

>> Again, you are linking it to politics. See above. Let's just keep to the thread itself. what I can only say is that if it is as forseeable, there would not be so many people taking losses on Blumont.

As written above. Definitely, it can be a rational discussion but it cannot be assumed that there would be a rational discussion.

(11-12-2013, 01:30 PM)egghead Wrote:

(11-12-2013, 12:57 PM)kbl Wrote: shake head. why men-in-blue fleeing like ..........

Put yourself in their shoes and tell me what you would have done.

hi Egghead san,

pls take a closer look. those FT did not carry any weapons and the men-in-blue should be able to *safe guard* the ambulance.

I will Not run away.

as long as not in my backyard....spare a thought for the residents there.....

(11-12-2013, 01:30 PM)valueinvestor Wrote: Some political leader like MP Tin PL already said this was just another isolated incident, so shouldn't create storm in a tea cup.

“The problem we have now is an underclass. It's no doubt a permanent transient underclass. It's a permanent underclass of low cost foreign workers who'd move on, of course, after a few years, but it's permanent in terms of its size."

http://www.channelnewsasia.com/news/sing...16850.html


http://investideas.net/forum/index.php?s...d0407409e1

(11-12-2013, 01:30 PM)valueinvestor Wrote: Some political leader like MP Tin PL already said this was just another isolated incident, so shouldn't create storm in a tea cup.

Ya lol!
Cina Bus strike = isolated incident. Now, Indian Riot also = isolated incident . We hope 1st time losing a GRC in the last GE also = isolated incident. Yes or No???
In case you don't know:
Isolated = happening just once as define by the dictionary.
Ha! Ha!

(11-12-2013, 01:45 PM)kbl Wrote:

(11-12-2013, 01:30 PM)egghead Wrote:

(11-12-2013, 12:57 PM)kbl Wrote: shake head. why men-in-blue fleeing like ..........

Put yourself in their shoes and tell me what you would have done.

hi Egghead san,

pls take a closer look. those FT did not carry any weapons and the men-in-blue should be able to *safe guard* the ambulance.

I will Not run away.

Hi, kbl san, you are a brave soul. One needs to remain calm, assess the situation, see whether there is a chance to walk out unharmed or get surrounded by a mob (even if they are not carrying weapon) and get hammered. Those in the ambulance were running away as they feared that they may be burnt alive!

My expectation not so high to expect a hero to emerge in every crisis. Of course it will be a bonus if one emerge.