Make money 'without actual work'

(03-04-2013, 01:11 PM)Temperament Wrote:

(03-04-2013, 12:54 PM)a74henry Wrote:

(03-04-2013, 12:49 PM)Temperament Wrote: To me it's all semantics only.
No matter who you are, what you are, you must buy & sell. Sell and buy. We are all traders. Only we trade "differently". Only some of us like to think we are investors. The real investors you should known who they are. In fact, WB is considered more an business investor than trader. How many of us have bought and keep a counter for more than 10 to 30 years? Very few of us indeed.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trader_(finance)

A trader is a person or entity, in finance, who buys and sells financial instruments such as stocks, bonds, commodities and derivatives, in the capacity of agent

I have kept my counters for more than 10 years. I will only sell if there is a fundamental change to the company.

i have HWP for more than 25 years by design or more by default because i were an ex-employee . From HWP, i have A. (AGILENT-HWP spin-off and a local spin-off which has been de-listed). How i wish i was working for "IBM" or "Microsoft" instead. Too bad.

i understand the point of a real investor in a company. The only caveat is when the fundamentals of a great company changes, can i still sell at the price when the company is in its pink of health? Or can i get out in time, without giving back all the profit on paper?
The only caveat(fear) of an investor is only imagination? NO? YES?

An investor got to know the business he is investing and the managment so as to understand the fundamentals.

Some traders I know have a 10% cut loss policy. This could help with the ability to sell out at a price when the company is in its pink of health.

However, the company share price could rise higher with a new popular product, business model, etc.

(03-04-2013, 01:16 PM)a74henry Wrote:

(03-04-2013, 01:11 PM)Temperament Wrote:

(03-04-2013, 12:54 PM)a74henry Wrote:

(03-04-2013, 12:49 PM)Temperament Wrote: To me it's all semantics only.
No matter who you are, what you are, you must buy & sell. Sell and buy. We are all traders. Only we trade "differently". Only some of us like to think we are investors. The real investors you should known who they are. In fact, WB is considered more an business investor than trader. How many of us have bought and keep a counter for more than 10 to 30 years? Very few of us indeed.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trader_(finance)

A trader is a person or entity, in finance, who buys and sells financial instruments such as stocks, bonds, commodities and derivatives, in the capacity of agent

I have kept my counters for more than 10 years. I will only sell if there is a fundamental change to the company.

i have HWP for more than 25 years by design or more by default because i were an ex-employee . From HWP, i have A. (AGILENT-HWP spin-off and a local spin-off which has been de-listed). How i wish i was working for "IBM" or "Microsoft" instead. Too bad.

i understand the point of a real investor in a company. The only caveat is when the fundamentals of a great company changes, can i still sell at the price when the company is in its pink of health? Or can i get out in time, without giving back all the profit on paper?
The only caveat(fear) of an investor is only imagination? NO? YES?

An investor got to know the business he is investing and the managment so as to understand the fundamentals.

Some traders I know have a 10% cut loss policy. This could help with the ability to sell out at a price when the company is in its pink of health.

However, the company share price could rise higher with a new popular product, business model, etc.

Whatever it is, as long as you make money in your "investment", it may matters to some but not to me. Ha! Ha!
Cheers!

(01-04-2013, 07:37 PM)lonewolf Wrote: Personally I find some of the condescending comments by 'value investors' increasing tiresome.

Sure in a rising market, some of the winners may perhaps be dismissed as being 'lucky' and having bought at the 'correct' time.

But I would like to say that 'value investing' is not the 'be all that end all' in investing. And I also like to suggest that some of the winners in the stock picks by 'value investors' is also down to timing and yes - luck.

Let me ask you guys a question: Have you ever come across a company that you think is a value proposition but for some unfathomable reasons, it seems to be persistently undervalued by Mr. Market? Why? You can keep on beating the drum and say that this company has a fantastic moat, good fundamentals and sustainable earnings, but if no one is listening or paying attention, does it matter if you are a one-member cheer-leading squad? Of cos not.

So I won't dismiss 'traders' so much; just like I always feel that the word 'investors' is probably over-stated and over-rated.

Fully agree with you.

(03-04-2013, 04:07 PM)camelking Wrote:

(01-04-2013, 07:37 PM)lonewolf Wrote: Personally I find some of the condescending comments by 'value investors' increasing tiresome.

Sure in a rising market, some of the winners may perhaps be dismissed as being 'lucky' and having bought at the 'correct' time.

But I would like to say that 'value investing' is not the 'be all that end all' in investing. And I also like to suggest that some of the winners in the stock picks by 'value investors' is also down to timing and yes - luck.

Let me ask you guys a question: Have you ever come across a company that you think is a value proposition but for some unfathomable reasons, it seems to be persistently undervalued by Mr. Market? Why? You can keep on beating the drum and say that this company has a fantastic moat, good fundamentals and sustainable earnings, but if no one is listening or paying attention, does it matter if you are a one-member cheer-leading squad? Of cos not.

So I won't dismiss 'traders' so much; just like I always feel that the word 'investors' is probably over-stated and over-rated.

Fully agree with you.

I also agree, I think being a real value investor is overrated. Sorry but what lonewolf says is correct there's no point investing in something that is not on the radar on the big players who are the movers. In the end most of the undervalued stocks move here and "realized" their value today is probably from the speculators and traders that the "value crowd" are trying to avoid. If it were not for them you probably will still be banging on your drums till now.

(03-04-2013, 04:26 PM)sgd Wrote:

(03-04-2013, 04:07 PM)camelking Wrote:

(01-04-2013, 07:37 PM)lonewolf Wrote: Personally I find some of the condescending comments by 'value investors' increasing tiresome.

Sure in a rising market, some of the winners may perhaps be dismissed as being 'lucky' and having bought at the 'correct' time.

But I would like to say that 'value investing' is not the 'be all that end all' in investing. And I also like to suggest that some of the winners in the stock picks by 'value investors' is also down to timing and yes - luck.

Let me ask you guys a question: Have you ever come across a company that you think is a value proposition but for some unfathomable reasons, it seems to be persistently undervalued by Mr. Market? Why? You can keep on beating the drum and say that this company has a fantastic moat, good fundamentals and sustainable earnings, but if no one is listening or paying attention, does it matter if you are a one-member cheer-leading squad? Of cos not.

So I won't dismiss 'traders' so much; just like I always feel that the word 'investors' is probably over-stated and over-rated.

Fully agree with you.

I also agree, I think being a real value investor is overrated. Sorry but what lonewolf says is correct there's no point investing in something that is not on the radar on the big players who are the movers. In the end most of the stocks move here today is probably from the speculators and traders that the "value crowd" are trying to avoid. If it were not for them you probably will still be banging on your drums till now.

Just to share.....my boss made USD40m from selling put options on US stocks last year.
He has never heard of value investing...he is almost a billionaire...

My point is keeping an OPEN mind is important.

Money is money!

Haha Camelking, I think most of us mere mortals cannot make USD 40m from doing that!

Next best thing is value investing which protects your downside and provides a consistent, adequate return. THe important thing is to focus on not losing money, which is very important over the long-term.

Problem is in the current environment, where the index continues to hit 5-year highs, it is tough to think of not losing money when everyone is so eager to make as much as they can.

(03-04-2013, 04:35 PM)camelking Wrote: Just to share.....my boss made USD40m from selling put options on US stocks last year.
He has never heard of value investing...he is almost a billionaire...

My point is keeping an OPEN mind is important.

Money is money!

USD40m out of almost a billion is 4-5% depending on the currency, not a lot if that's the only returns (last year STI was ~+20%). My mind is OPEN to know more about how he got to be almost a billionaire and his other investment activities since it's obviously not related to Value Investing...

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MusicWhiz Wrote:Problem is in the current environment, where the index continues to hit 5-year highs, it is tough to think of not losing money when everyone is so eager to make as much as they can.

One of the lesson I have learnt from previous bull markets. If you just blindly buy and hold, at most you're just enjoying the roller coaster ride, feeling 'shiok' when it hits a high.... That's ok for Warren Buffett kind of stocks ie. those that'll continue growing cos' of their incredible moat and franchise. For the others, it's still best to learn when to sell... On hindsight, I'd always felt silly to have held on to my No/Slow Growth Yield stocks that'd dropped to very low yield, thinking that it'll somehow continue to grow... Also those that'd reached high PEs even tho' No/Slow Growth...I know it's not easy, I always sell too early, but fortunately, the cash are usually deployed immediately when I find better alternatives. If I can't find any? Just wait patiently.. read more ARs or play more online games...

I am also curious how he could attain a billionaire status...probably he read "The Richest Man in Babylon" and practised it everyday.

(03-04-2013, 05:21 PM)Musicwhiz Wrote: Haha Camelking, I think most of us mere mortals cannot make USD 40m from doing that!

Next best thing is value investing which protects your downside and provides a consistent, adequate return. THe important thing is to focus on not losing money, which is very important over the long-term.

Problem is in the current environment, where the index continues to hit 5-year highs, it is tough to think of not losing money when everyone is so eager to make as much as they can.

Frankly, i am not too sure that value investing is the NEXT BEST THING.
You see, the moment, u decided that value investing is the BEST way...you have somehow excluded all other ways of making money...
Note: I am not saying value investing is NOT the way. But value investing could be well, one of the ways to make money.

When u refer to index, i believe u are talking about Dow Jones and S&P as our STI is still way from the historical high.
Well, instead of looking at index, perhaps a better way is to look at the PE ratio. Looking at index alone does not care of inflation.

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(03-04-2013, 05:39 PM)KopiKat Wrote:

(03-04-2013, 04:35 PM)camelking Wrote: Just to share.....my boss made USD40m from selling put options on US stocks last year.
He has never heard of value investing...he is almost a billionaire...

My point is keeping an OPEN mind is important.

Money is money!

USD40m out of almost a billion is 4-5% depending on the currency, not a lot if that's the only returns (last year STI was ~+20%). My mind is OPEN to know more about how he got to be almost a billionaire and his other investment activities since it's obviously not related to Value Investing...

---

MusicWhiz Wrote:Problem is in the current environment, where the index continues to hit 5-year highs, it is tough to think of not losing money when everyone is so eager to make as much as they can.

One of the lesson I have learnt from previous bull markets. If you just blindly buy and hold, at most you're just enjoying the roller coaster ride, feeling 'shiok' when it hits a high.... That's ok for Warren Buffett kind of stocks ie. those that'll continue growing cos' of their incredible moat and franchise. For the others, it's still best to learn when to sell... On hindsight, I'd always felt silly to have held on to my No/Slow Growth Yield stocks that'd dropped to very low yield, thinking that it'll somehow continue to grow... Also those that'd reached high PEs even tho' No/Slow Growth...I know it's not easy, I always sell too early, but fortunately, the cash are usually deployed immediately when I find better alternatives. If I can't find any? Just wait patiently.. read more ARs or play more online games...

He is a businessman.
His business cover from import/export, properties, investment in equities, options, FX and etc.
40m is just one of the incomes that the group generated last year.
We have more conventional sources of incomes from import/export and properties too.
His success formula?
I guess it is luck, foresight and lot of guts.

(03-04-2013, 06:21 PM)camelking Wrote: He is a businessman.
His business cover from import/export, properties, investment in equities, options, FX and etc.
40m is just one of the incomes that the group generated last year.
We have more conventional sources of incomes from import/export and properties too.
His success formula?
I guess it is luck, foresight and lot of guts.

Thank you for sharing!
I can understand how your boss, as a businessman, can be a lot more enterprising than most of us and not being artificially bounded by any definitions of Value Investing...

Fully agree... keep our minds open and we'll be able to learn new tricks and achieve a lot more...

BTW, I did hear from my broker about the US Options market. Anyone (including you and me) can write options and that's another useful way to make money for those shares you're already holding. However, I didn't explore further as my funds are still rather limited and am currently more focussed on our local market. Perhaps soon (I say that to myself every year...)