China Sunsine Chemicals Holdings

Curiousparty

Sunsine had warned in its 4Q 2011 result announcement that it would reduce accelerator selling prices to gain market share, and that would affect profit margin in 2012.
The annual report 2012 also explained that besides the price cut, start-up costs for new facilities, cost of trial run for new product 6PPD, and setting aside more for staff benefits resulted in low profit for 2012.
At the AGM in April 2013, the company shared that without the one-off costs, profit in 2013 should be better.
Profit in 2013 improved indeed. There is no indication that the company “frontloaded” cost to suppress share price.
Did you attend the AGM or read the report?
Your comments such as:
“Grateful if valuebuddies can help to flag out any possible red flags for sunsine.
(e.g. any similarity with Foreland FabricTech?)” and
“This world is interesting. There are so many examples of S-chips going sour but people just don't "learn", always thinking that this time round, this S-chip is different.”
are scary, and suppress share price.
But now you are saying that you know that Sunsine might have great potential.
I am confused by your mood change.

yes, I have read all these "public lines" many times. But we have to read "behind the lines" and how does this tie in with other info.
Tks for resurfacing these details again


I have to re-emphasize again as I have stated in my previous post - anything not out in the public domain is my own speculation. I am not liable for any such statement made. Interpretation of the real meaning behind each figure is always subjective

For me, I tend to piece together all the info from any sources before I invest seriously into any counter.

So for sunsine, it is just for the thrill of it and nothing else.

If valuebuddies have "more new information" on sunsine, preferably blind spots that investor tend to miss out, pls share with us.
I don't believe that it is 100% roses even for the best counters. there are always blindspots and our focus should be on those, rather than the oft-triumphed good points, and we should be "double stringent" on S chips. The margin of safety has to be set much higher.

Hope we close this issue for now.

btw, there is nothing wrong with my mood. tks.
(Sunsine might have great potential but high returns come with super high risk}

(17-08-2014, 09:04 AM)simpleman Wrote: Curiousparty

Sunsine had warned in its 4Q 2011 result announcement that it would reduce accelerator selling prices to gain market share, and that would affect profit margin in 2012.
The annual report 2012 also explained that besides the price cut, start-up costs for new facilities, cost of trial run for new product 6PPD, and setting aside more for staff benefits resulted in low profit for 2012.
At the AGM in April 2013, the company shared that without the one-off costs, profit in 2013 should be better.
Profit in 2013 improved indeed. There is no indication that the company “frontloaded” cost to suppress share price.
Did you attend the AGM or read the report?
Your comments such as:
“Grateful if valuebuddies can help to flag out any possible red flags for sunsine.
(e.g. any similarity with Foreland FabricTech?)” and
“This world is interesting. There are so many examples of S-chips going sour but people just don't "learn", always thinking that this time round, this S-chip is different.”
are scary, and suppress share price.
But now you are saying that you know that Sunsine might have great potential.
I am confused by your mood change.

Curiouparty

If Snsine had “front-loaded” cost to make 2012 profit very low, then I can only conclude that the company is sound and is not bothered about how the low profit will affect its standing.

If the company has the intention to understate profit, why are profits in 20I3 and 1H 2014 high?

In stock of course there will be risk. No one can say they know 100% the direction of a stock in future. We can all share information and analysis to aid our decision making. However, it's just inappropriate to insinuate something is not right by saying you based on information and sources that you cannot share. If that's the case it's better not to mention anything in the first place.

Young Investor Wrote:Curiouparty If Snsine had “front-loaded” cost to make 2012 profit very low, then I can only conclude that the company is sound and is not bothered about how the low profit will affect its standing. If the company has the intention to understate profit, why are profits in 20I3 and 1H 2014 high?

Things are not always as simple as it seems .
This is all I can say . Tks

Bluechipfan Wrote:In stock of course there will be risk. No one can say they know 100% the direction of a stock in future. We can all share information and analysis to aid our decision making. However, it's just inappropriate to insinuate something is not right by saying you based on information and sources that you cannot share. If that's the case it's better not to mention anything in the first place.

Even research house like Phillip capital can use terms like " words are out on the street that xxxxx .... "

If investing is as simple as reading financial statements and annual report , many people would have been millionaires by now . It is the action and the perception of management actions and the intent of their actions that we have to decipher together with the financial figures we see. And each of us is entitled to our own subjective views . Tks .

Curiouparty, you said in post 332 that the cost of implementing pollution control will come down over time due to the competition amongst vendors to provide such services.

You quoted the cost desalinated water coming down to $1 per m3 from $2 few years ago.

What processes desalination and wastewater treatment have in common?

Do you have data on declining cost of wastewater treatment?

Thank you.

yes, one good source of info is GWI (global water intelligence) report.

The latest technology is to develop "energy neutral" waste water treatment plant, i.e. recovery of energy from waste-water itself and feeding the energy back to treat the waste water. The technologies are already been in place for quite some time. the key of how much and how fast the overall cost will come down really depends on the degree of energy recovery. Once the tech is widely adopted, this would probably change the dynamic of the chemical industries around the world.

Any competitor can just buy the pollution control modules off the market and compete directly with the incumbents. This is the fundamental reason why "overcapacity" is always going to be an issue for chemical industry in general. e.g. Based on my experience in the wafer fab industry, most of the water/waste-water recycling technologies are not proprietary and can be bought off the markets.

My humble view is the high ASP will not hold up for long.

tks.
*******

The above is the reply for waste water treatment. On the desalination front, there are further new technological developments which are set to further lower the cost of desalination in the years ahead. For example, there are attempts to recover energy from brine (by-product from production of desalinated water) to reduce energy reliance of desalination plant, etc.

(18-08-2014, 09:53 AM)Young Investor Wrote: Curiouparty, you said in post 332 that the cost of implementing pollution control will come down over time due to the competition amongst vendors to provide such services.

You quoted the cost desalinated water coming down to $1 per m3 from $2 few years ago.

What processes desalination and wastewater treatment have in common?

Do you have data on declining cost of wastewater treatment?

Thank you.

Curiosparty

You have said that "energy neutral" waste water treatment plant recovers energy from waste-water itself and feeding the energy back to treat the waste water.

Wastewater treatment is energy-intensive. Can the “energy neutral“ plant produce enough energy from waste water for its own operations?

Can you share with us the writeup on energy neutral plant?

Your point that accelerator companies can install pollution equipment is valid. But that will cost money and incur cost to treat pollutants. For small factories, the unit cost will be high, and that is the reason many have not done so before.

http://bv.com/Home/news/solutions/water/...wastewater

http://www.veoliawaterst-sea.com/sustain...anagement/

http://www.tpomag.com/editorial/2013/05/...gy_neutral

When this cost of pollution control comes down, the whole dynamic will change drastically. tks.

(19-08-2014, 12:39 PM)Young Investor Wrote: Curiosparty

You have said that "energy neutral" waste water treatment plant recovers energy from waste-water itself and feeding the energy back to treat the waste water.

Wastewater treatment is energy-intensive. Can the “energy neutral“ plant produce enough energy from waste water for its own operations?

Can you share with us the writeup on energy neutral plant?

Your point that accelerator companies can install pollution equipment is valid. But that will cost money and incur cost to treat pollutants. For small factories, the unit cost will be high, and that is the reason many have not done so before.