Malaysia Airlines hunt for missing plane

A plane has critical flight data recorded in a black box to facilitate disaster investigation. Unfortunately, the black box is located on the plane itself. In some disaster situation, the black box may not be accessible and disaster investigation is thus hampered.

I do not know why the industry still have not developed a system whereby critical flight data (and may be cctv images of cabins) are transmitted real time to a ground server. If such a system is implemented, the nature of the disaster would be known even before the first rescue team is despatched. Possibile challenges to the development of such a system may be due to transmission bandwidth limitation, electromagnetic interference and battery requirement. If the data transmission channel is secured and one-way-traffic from the plane to the server, concerns such as hacking and remote control of the plane is non-issue. To address privacy concerns, only authorised access of the data recorded in the ground server is allowed and the data is to be deleted after a reasonable duration after the plane had safely landed.

I guess that boils down to costs... especially when airlines aren't particularly profitable in the first place. It'll increase the running costs (considering the bandwidth) and additional hardware/software support down the line.

(13-03-2014, 12:00 PM)wsreader Wrote: A plane has critical flight data recorded in a black box to facilitate disaster investigation. Unfortunately, the black box is located on the plane itself. In some disaster situation, the black box may not be accessible and disaster investigation is thus hampered.

I do not know why the industry still have not developed a system whereby critical flight data (and may be cctv images of cabins) are transmitted real time to a ground server. If such a system is implemented, the nature of the disaster would be known even before the first rescue team is despatched. Possibile challenges to the development of such a system may be due to transmission bandwidth limitation, electromagnetic interference and battery requirement. If the data transmission channel is secured and one-way-traffic from the plane to the server, concerns such as hacking and remote control of the plane is non-issue. To address privacy concerns, only authorised access of the data recorded in the ground server is allowed and the data is to be deleted after a reasonable duration after the plane had safely landed.

For mission critical operation, the reliability has the highest weightage in design. Wireless is always the least reliable, over the wired communication channels, thus may be one of the reasons the proposal fail to be accepted.

I knew the data collection communication channel from MRT stations to central control were via 1200 bps modem, when the wired broadband were popular at home. It was about few years ago.

The engine data of MH370 was streamed realtime in half hourly segments to Rolls Royce.

Update from the 5.30pm media conference: this wsj report below is NOT accurate. Last transmission of engine data was 1.07am local time.

Quote:http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10...3903086282
Updated March 13, 2014 2:18 a.m. ET
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Aviation investigators and national security officials believe the plane flew for a total of five hours, based on data automatically downloaded and sent to the ground from the Boeing Co. BA -0.99% 777's engines as part of a routine maintenance and monitoring program.
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The engines' onboard monitoring system is provided by their manufacturer, Rolls-Royce RR.LN -1.71% PLC, and it periodically sends bursts of data about engine health, operations and aircraft movements to facilities on the ground.
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As part of its maintenance agreements, Malaysia Airlines transmits its engine data live to Rolls-Royce for analysis. The system compiles data from inside the 777's two Trent 800 engines and transmits snapshots of performance, as well as the altitude and speed of the jet.

Those snippets are compiled and transmitted in 30-minute increments, said one person familiar with the system. According to Rolls-Royce's website, the data is processed automatically "so that subtle changes in condition from one flight to another can be detected."

The engine data is being analyzed to help determine the flight path of the plane after the transponders stopped working. The jet was originally headed for China, and its last verified position was half way across the Gulf of Thailand.

A total flight time of five hours after departing Kuala Lumpur means the Boeing 777 could have continued for an additional distance of about 2,200 nautical miles, reaching points as far as the Indian Ocean, the border of Pakistan or even the Arabian Sea, based on the jet's cruising speed.

(13-03-2014, 12:00 PM)wsreader Wrote: I do not know why the industry still have not developed a system whereby critical flight data (and may be cctv images of cabins) are transmitted real time to a ground server.

It's called ACARS system (airborne communications addressing and reporting system) and yes, they do have the data. It seems the data simply stopped at 0107hrs.

Flight 370 not alone in 'lost without a trace' cases
DANIEL MICHAELS AND JON OSTROWER THE WALL STREET JOURNAL MARCH 13, 2014 12:00AM

ELEVEN years ago, a shiny silver Boeing 727 airliner took off from Luanda, Angola, and became one of the few commercial jetliners to vanish and never be found.

Massive jet aircraft disappear more often in fiction than in real life, but it does happen. In 1979, a Boeing 707 with six people aboard was lost in the Pacific Ocean after leaving Tokyo. And dozens of smaller planes have gone missing and never been located.

The search for Malaysia Airlines Flight 370, which disappeared early last Saturday with 239 on board, is unprecedented because of the plane's size and because the wide-body Boeing 777 had been in radio and satellite contact with multiple locations on the ground. Contact with it was lost over a small sea surrounded by one of the world's most densely populated regions, Southeast Asia, not over remote jungle or open ocean.

Radar, satellites and other technology have become powerful aids in such situations but technology still has limited reach in some swathes of the planet.

"The fact is that, in many parts of the world, radar coverage is not complete," said David McMillan, chairman of the Flight Safety Foundation and former head of Eurocontrol, Europe's air-traffic co-ordinator. "It's clearly an area for further improvement."

In the same region in 2007, it took crews 10 days to find the first pieces of an Indonesian Boeing 737 that crashed in the sea near Sulawesi. Searchers needed 36 hours to locate the first wreckage of Air France Flight 447, which crashed over the Atlantic five years ago with 228 people aboard.

"If a plane goes down in the ocean, it's very difficult to find it," said Richard B. Stone, a former president of the International Society of Air Safety Investigators.

The Aviation Safety Network, a database of accidents, lists 80 planes as missing since 1948. No traces of the planes or their occupants were found, according to ASN president Harro Ranter. The aircraft range from tiny one-seat propeller planes to jetliners.

The 727 that vanished over Angola is believed to have had only two people on board. "I have no idea (about what happened to the 727), it is one of those things we've never understood," said Maury Joseph, president of Aerospace Sales & Leasing.

"It's unheard of for something that large, and nothing to this day has ever shown up."

Malaysia Airlines Flight 370 is one of the first jets since then to disappear for this long.

"The fact that it's so rare is the reason everyone is paying attention to it," said Bob van der Linden, chairman of the aeronautics department at the Smithsonian National Air and Space Museum.

Disappearances used to be more common. Amelia Earhart was notable as one of the first female aviators to set distance records in the 1930s but she remains in the public consciousness today more because she disappeared in her Lockheed Electra near New Guinea while attempting to circumnavigate the globe.

Today, radar can generally track most aircraft. But even in an age of global satellite navigation and the perception of worldwide surveillance, significant areas of the globe are untouched by radar or regular observation.

Empty spots are shrinking. In the 1970s, the "Bermuda Triangle" loomed in the imagination after several military planes disappeared in the Atlantic Ocean region between Florida, Puerto Rico and Bermuda, and other aircraft and ships were said to have vanished there. Supernatural explanations were eventually debunked. "The accident rate in the Bermuda Triangle is no better or worse than anywhere else, but it sounds really intriguing," Mr van der Linden said.

Quote:Flight 370 not alone in 'lost without a trace' cases
DANIEL MICHAELS AND JON OSTROWER THE WALL STREET JOURNAL MARCH 13, 2014 12:00AM
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"The fact is that, in many parts of the world, radar coverage is not complete," said David McMillan, chairman of the Flight Safety Foundation and former head of Eurocontrol, Europe's air-traffic co-ordinator. "It's clearly an area for further improvement."
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Today, radar can generally track most aircraft. But even in an age of global satellite navigation and the perception of worldwide surveillance, significant areas of the globe are untouched by radar or regular observation.

Based on this allegation below reported by AFP, it may not be due to a lack of radar coverage:

Quote:Singapore-based Aviation expert Terence Fan said military radar from various countries may have detected the plane but governments were reluctant to share the data because it would reveal their capabilities and compromise security.

"There may be some military sensitivity because the radar is not continuous, it sort of sweeps around a couple of times," Fan said.

"The rate at which they can take the picture can also reveal how good the radar system is and that I think is probably why the countries around here are not very fond of sharing the information."

http://www.channelnewsasia.com/news/asia...34752.html

(13-03-2014, 11:47 PM)swakoo Wrote:

Quote:Flight 370 not alone in 'lost without a trace' cases
DANIEL MICHAELS AND JON OSTROWER THE WALL STREET JOURNAL MARCH 13, 2014 12:00AM
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"The fact is that, in many parts of the world, radar coverage is not complete," said David McMillan, chairman of the Flight Safety Foundation and former head of Eurocontrol, Europe's air-traffic co-ordinator. "It's clearly an area for further improvement."
.
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Today, radar can generally track most aircraft. But even in an age of global satellite navigation and the perception of worldwide surveillance, significant areas of the globe are untouched by radar or regular observation.

Based on this allegation below reported by AFP, it may not be due to a lack of radar coverage:

Quote:Singapore-based Aviation expert Terence Fan said military radar from various countries may have detected the plane but governments were reluctant to share the data because it would reveal their capabilities and compromise security.

"There may be some military sensitivity because the radar is not continuous, it sort of sweeps around a couple of times," Fan said.

"The rate at which they can take the picture can also reveal how good the radar system is and that I think is probably why the countries around here are not very fond of sharing the information."

http://www.channelnewsasia.com/news/asia...34752.html

Ya lor. SAF radar range should be able to cover the whole of Msia. If not, SG jia lat already...

Alot of misconceptions and assumptions here I'd like to clarify.

(10-03-2014, 09:50 AM)Contrarian Wrote:

(08-03-2014, 03:10 PM)pianist Wrote: crash on sea the impact should not be that heavy as compared to land..hopefully they are able to inflate their life jackets on the sea

1. Weather and visibility is good. So bad weather is not the main cause

2. No mayday distress signal - that means event is so sudden the pilots do not even have time to react. Remember the pilots door is now fortified.

4. The unauthorised passports - telling me high chance of terrorists on board.

My guess is that the terrorists did such a good job holding the pilots hostages and triggering a mid-air explosion that is so devastating...

My brother told me the black box signal is on for 72 hours only...

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(10-03-2014, 07:42 PM)Contrarian Wrote: > Seems quite likely hijack and locator is turned off.

Is there a way the terrorists can do to make the flight recorder fail?

I pray not... if the flight recorder drop to the sea bed bottom... can the planes pick it up?

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(13-03-2014, 12:00 PM)wsreader Wrote: A plane has critical flight data recorded in a black box to facilitate disaster investigation. Unfortunately, the black box is located on the plane itself. In some disaster situation, the black box may not be accessible and disaster investigation is thus hampered.

I do not know why the industry still have not developed a system whereby critical flight data (and may be cctv images of cabins) are transmitted real time to a ground server. If such a system is implemented, the nature of the disaster would be known even before the first rescue team is despatched. Possibile challenges to the development of such a system may be due to transmission bandwidth limitation, electromagnetic interference and battery requirement. If the data transmission channel is secured and one-way-traffic from the plane to the server, concerns such as hacking and remote control of the plane is non-issue. To address privacy concerns, only authorised access of the data recorded in the ground server is allowed and the data is to be deleted after a reasonable duration after the plane had safely landed.

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(14-03-2014, 01:21 AM)opmi Wrote:

(13-03-2014, 11:47 PM)swakoo Wrote:

Quote:Flight 370 not alone in 'lost without a trace' cases
DANIEL MICHAELS AND JON OSTROWER THE WALL STREET JOURNAL MARCH 13, 2014 12:00AM
.
.
"The fact is that, in many parts of the world, radar coverage is not complete," said David McMillan, chairman of the Flight Safety Foundation and former head of Eurocontrol, Europe's air-traffic co-ordinator. "It's clearly an area for further improvement."
.
.
Today, radar can generally track most aircraft. But even in an age of global satellite navigation and the perception of worldwide surveillance, significant areas of the globe are untouched by radar or regular observation.

Based on this allegation below reported by AFP, it may not be due to a lack of radar coverage:

Quote:Singapore-based Aviation expert Terence Fan said military radar from various countries may have detected the plane but governments were reluctant to share the data because it would reveal their capabilities and compromise security.

"There may be some military sensitivity because the radar is not continuous, it sort of sweeps around a couple of times," Fan said.

"The rate at which they can take the picture can also reveal how good the radar system is and that I think is probably why the countries around here are not very fond of sharing the information."

http://www.channelnewsasia.com/news/asia...34752.html

Ya lor. SAF radar range should be able to cover the whole of Msia. If not, SG jia lat already...

Contrarian and Pianist,

Sea crashes are one of the hardest to determine and locate, simply because airplanes break up on impact. Being surrounded by water, almost always, there will be no visible smoke trails from burning fuel, etc. Debris do float, but for a limited time only, until they become too waterlogged to retain buoyancy, currents carry them everywhere, and some may never be washed up on shorelines. And yes, as mentioned, The black box signal lasts for up to 30-60 days depending on make.

Are you referring to the Aircraft Transponder, Emergency Location Transmitter (ELT) or to the Flight Data Recorder (Black Box). The aircraft transponder is the unit that constantly sends out the signals to way stations, notifying them of it's presence in the area. the ELT is the unit that is triggered on hard impact or immersion in brine and begins to transmit it's signals to any aircraft, shipcraft or listening stations within a given range. The Black Box is the unit that records the essential parameters of the airplane's flight, such as airspeed, flight control positions, flight deck conversations, etc that are required for maintenance or in the case of an incident, for investigations. the transponder AND flight data recorder can be manually de-activated, but the person doing it must be trained and be very very well prepared with the right tools, etc. the ELT, however, cannot be deactivated, short of distmantling the entire unit. ELT signals at sea bedare difficult to locate from the air, but not from the sea, reason being the sonar signal it pings out.

Wsreader,

As mentioned, Critical Flight Data on a B777 are automatically and constantly being transmitted to ground stations during an airplane's flight, both for monitoring as well as for maintenance planning purposes.

Swakoo & opmi,

Radar range is also assuming that our neighbour is flat from the southern border all the way until the northern border. Sharing of radar information is limited in most cases BUT in SAR situations like this, there are no borders nor secrets. Human lives at stake, and any country found with-holding vital info resulting in the failure of a SAR operation will suffer irrevocable backlash and isolation. I hardly doubt our military top brass would want to restrict the sharing, wouldn't you think so?

(14-03-2014, 02:00 AM)Jon-san Wrote: Swakoo & opmi,

Radar range is also assuming that our neighbour is flat from the southern border all the way until the northern border. Sharing of radar information is limited in most cases BUT in SAR situations like this, there are no borders nor secrets. Human lives at stake, and any country found with-holding vital info resulting in the failure of a SAR operation will suffer irrevocable backlash and isolation. I hardly doubt our military top brass would want to restrict the sharing, wouldn't you think so?

Jon-san, thanks for going into details. I think Terence Fan was not necessarily referring to Singapore.

Note that Malaysia itself took several days after disappearance of MH370 before disclosure of it's primary radar detecting an unidentified object at the north of the Straits of Malacca. Disclosure was made after it had already started to deploy assets to the search in the area west of the peninsula.