Insurance & Costs of having and raising a child

"Lastly, I realise that doctors will be more opened to discussion if the enquirer is calm and perceived to have some basic medical knowledge."

I have to agreed to this.

Of cos the docs can test and retests to prove that they are right... but ultimately, they have to communicate the facts to the families members too!

(30-10-2012, 10:56 AM)brattzz Wrote: "Lastly, I realise that doctors will be more opened to discussion if the enquirer is calm and perceived to have some basic medical knowledge."

I have to agreed to this.

Of cos the docs can test and retests to prove that they are right... but ultimately, they have to communicate the facts to the families members too!

Doctor is like any other professionals, error in opinion (diagnostic) happens. A common-sense "test" is always required for all opinions. If necessary, second (or more) independent opinions may required before making decision.

No insurance company will operate a loss business.
That means for most people, the insurance premium paid for hospitalisation insurance is less than what they will ever claim. Is this logic correct?
Perhaps that is why there are people who choose to self insure, because they have the above chain of thoughts.

This is just for discussion, I do have medical and other insurance, for peace of mind, no intention to make insurance expense profitable for me.

(30-10-2012, 01:41 PM)wsreader Wrote: No insurance company will operate a loss business.
That means for most people, the insurance premium paid for hospitalisation insurance is less than what they will ever claim. Is this logic correct?
Perhaps that is why there are people who choose to self insure, because they have the above chain of thoughts.

This is just for discussion, I do have medical and other insurance, for peace of mind, no intention to make insurance expense profitable for me.

Insurance company offer a service to bear the risk of future medical expense, with a charge (premium)

Policy holder paid a fee (premium) to transfer the risk of future medical expense to insurance company

If one is sure the risk is zero, due to whatever reason, then any premium paid is over-paying.

IMO, It's normally non-economical to do self-insured. Insurance company is profitable due to larger pool of insured entities to pay for the losses that some may incur.

Quote:No insurance company will operate a loss business.
That means for most people, the insurance premium paid for hospitalisation insurance is less than what they will ever claim. Is this logic correct?

I cannot say for the hospitalization insurance line specifically, but in general I don't think it is a necessity for insurance companies to operate at underwriting profits, i.e. have insurance claims plus underwriting expenses to be less than insurance premiums, all the time. Many insurance companies will willingly operate at an underwriting loss just to get your premiums to reinvest at a rate where the investment income is able to compensate for underwriting losses.

In reality, I think most insurance companies will end up making underwriting losses once in a while. Even a master of actuarial science will most likely only win most of the time rather than all the time. Competition for a somewhat "commoditized" good will also ensure that premium rates offered will be very competitive, i.e. low. Flip through some of Berkshire's annual shareholders' letters in the 80s and 90s and you will see that in the US, there were some years in which the insurance industry as a whole operated at underwriting losses.

However, the second statement that "for most people, the insurance premium paid for hospitalisation insurance is less than what they will ever claim" may still be true due to the nature of hospitalization insurance, where claims may be infrequent, but of large amounts. Something similar to fire insurance perhaps.

Please correct me if I'm wrong.

(29-10-2012, 10:49 PM)CityFarmer Wrote:

(29-10-2012, 10:09 PM)sgd Wrote:

(29-10-2012, 09:28 PM)Hongwei Wrote: No one should opt out of the Basic medishield unless you are buying the private hospitalisation insurance like from Aia or prudential. Medical expenses are sky rocketing and having basic coverage ensures your family don't need to worry when something untoward happens.

I have an ex-colleague whose father died of cancer as he was not given medical attention in time when they couldnt pay the expensive bills. Her father had opted out of medishield and all his cash are tied up in his business, property and CPF. Needless to say, CPF wouldn't allow withdrawal even if the person is going to die and without immediate medical surgery, he didn't make it until the sale of their property. To think that the family was quite well off but just hit a dry spell with cash..

I don't know why the hospital had the heart to refuse treatment, maybe it's a private hospital and things happened so fast. But I believe bread winners should buy enough insurance to ensure their family need not be flustered when bad things happened and there's no one to make all the wise decisions.!

All the hospital in sg is about money, even you go to NUH you have to pay 1st bef they let you into consultation room.

Best is to buy your own hospitalization plan with rider, mine is around $500-$600 a year, must buy with the rider hor, without rider the first 12k-15k of the bill they don't cover means you have to fork out cash pls don't think can "get by" without it try to save a few hundred dollar is not worth it. I kena paid once wah piang so painful never again.

just to give an idea if you stay at private hospital for 1-2 nights the bill can reach nearly 10k and that is without any operation yet just stay overnight for "observation" your medisafe got how many hundred thousand in there that can let you stay hospital for how long? So you tell me cpf medisafe can do what?

some of you may think going private hospital is unnecessary excess and extravagance why not try going to nuh? if you lucky you might be to get treatment fast at nuh but if you unlucky they may say your condition must wait for availability because many people also need treatment so no vacancy join the queue wait 2 month, if you are dying or in terrible pain want to wait 2 month issit?

I agreed with you rider is necessary to avoid payment of the deductible and co-insurance which is below $8K IIRC

Medisave is for basic medical needs. I have gone to restructured hospital and private hospital for treatments. It is acceptable for restructured hospital treatment IMO.

I am not against going for Private hospital if necessary. Private hospital room rate is $250/day for 2-bed room. Of course suite room will cost close to $1k/day.

2 days stay for observation cost $10k? Not sure how it work out? Hidden cost that i have missed probably?

It is correct that we are paying for peace of mind and transfer of risk. We cannot look at the premium and the payout as a profit/loss thing.

For the $12-15k bills, I believe many value buddies here have easily six-digit or seven-digit net worth, possibly liquid assets. So self-insuring for $12-15k is not an issue. The question is how often would we expect to incur such $12-15k bills. If it is once every 2-5 years, then maybe yes we should buy the insurance with rider. But if it is less than once in 10 years, then maybe it's ok to self-insure. But, the problem is nobody knows these things.

Actuarial science means nothing if you are the unlucky one in a million who kena (touch wood) something. Say you can calculate that you have one in a million chance of incurring a $300k hospital bill. So you decide to self-insure. But suey suey if you kena you're screwed. So it's not just about probability but also the total impact if the low-probability event does happen.

(28-10-2012, 08:44 PM)Traumfanger Wrote:

(28-10-2012, 03:43 PM)Muck Wrote: I noticed that the aviva saf group term insurance states coverage for death due to illness and accident. Does anyone know if it covers other causes of death as well, e.g. Murder, suicide?

I seriously don't think you can find an insurance company that covers for suicide..

Bibi, cityfarmer and godjira are right. Such policies covering suicide do exist. The more pertinent part of my query really is whether anyone knows whether the aviva term covers something beyond the policyholder's control such as pre-meditated murder. It certainly does not qualify as an accident or an illness. Does this mean cannot claim?

(31-10-2012, 12:16 AM)Muck Wrote: Bibi, cityfarmer and godjira are right. Such policies covering suicide do exist. The more pertinent part of my query really is whether anyone knows whether the aviva term covers something beyond the policyholder's control such as pre-meditated murder. It certainly does not qualify as an accident or an illness. Does this mean cannot claim?

I think you should write to aviva to clarify and then print out their reply and attached it together with your policy. Aviva is very strict in adhering to their policy terms.

I am interested to know the answer though I don't have any aviva policy. so if you don't mind, do let me know once you have an answer. Thanks.

(31-10-2012, 01:18 AM)Bibi Wrote:

(31-10-2012, 12:16 AM)Muck Wrote: Bibi, cityfarmer and godjira are right. Such policies covering suicide do exist. The more pertinent part of my query really is whether anyone knows whether the aviva term covers something beyond the policyholder's control such as pre-meditated murder. It certainly does not qualify as an accident or an illness. Does this mean cannot claim?

I think you should write to aviva to clarify and then print out their reply and attached it together with your policy. Aviva is very strict in adhering to their policy terms.

I am interested to know the answer though I don't have any aviva policy. so if you don't mind, do let me know once you have an answer. Thanks.

Thanks Bibi. I don't have that aviva term policy though was briefly considering till I noticed the clause. Unfortunately I've asked questions thru their website (left email and phone contact) before, asking about car insurance matters, but they were not responsive. Thot I might try my luck asking any buddy here who might own this aviva policy who would know the terms well.

If no one has an answer I may just try writing in again and will share the response if they reply. Just to satisfy curiosity.

(31-10-2012, 07:16 AM)Muck Wrote:

(31-10-2012, 01:18 AM)Bibi Wrote:

(31-10-2012, 12:16 AM)Muck Wrote: Bibi, cityfarmer and godjira are right. Such policies covering suicide do exist. The more pertinent part of my query really is whether anyone knows whether the aviva term covers something beyond the policyholder's control such as pre-meditated murder. It certainly does not qualify as an accident or an illness. Does this mean cannot claim?

I think you should write to aviva to clarify and then print out their reply and attached it together with your policy. Aviva is very strict in adhering to their policy terms.

I am interested to know the answer though I don't have any aviva policy. so if you don't mind, do let me know once you have an answer. Thanks.

Thanks Bibi. I don't have that aviva term policy though was briefly considering till I noticed the clause. Unfortunately I've asked questions thru their website (left email and phone contact) before, asking about car insurance matters, but they were not responsive. Thot I might try my luck asking any buddy here who might own this aviva policy who would know the terms well.

If no one has an answer I may just try writing in again and will share the response if they reply. Just to satisfy curiosity.

Agent and insurance company are very sensitive to these type of clarifications, with obvious reason. I did ask similar question before, agent required black and white before he is willing to answer.