Length of loan is not the issue: Mah Bow Tan

I don't like some of the gov policies either, but I must admit Singapore is not an easy country to run. Too open to global fund flows. QE1,2,3 will just overwhelm us. Money flows in, we dunno if it will create asset bubble, then one fine day the money can all just flow out, like during Asian Financial Crisis. How, how, how? ("inside" joke).

Sure or not? Little red dot not easy to run? 60% of the people's vote but 95% of one party running (figure maybe not accurate) the country.
And you are not allowed to do many many things. Almost all the things you want to do you need to apply for a permit. Which is not easily granted. Why else you need a permit then?
And Parliament runs like a "Rubber Stamp" making company.

Ha ha, in some democracies, even with 49% the party(A) can get into power. Because the rival (B) got 30% and © got 21%.

Anyway, my point is that from the financial point of view Singapore is not easy to run. Want to grow but cannot hire foreigners, then the low-level jobs Singaporeans dowan to do. Also the big big questions like how to keep Singapore growing (when developed countries like Japan, US and European countries all in a funk). How to protect Singapore from currency attacks (like the 97-98 scenario). How to control asset prices and stocks from getting inflated when QE1,2,3 money flows here in a tidal wave? Or let it inflate and Singaporeans get rich, but how to prevent the bust when the money flows out?

I see us like the developed countries. Our people are not hungry anymore. I speak for myself. If I have to work in the sun for 8 hours a day I also don't think I want. But what job can I do that others cannot do cheaper and better? I really dunno. I want to complain, but complain with no solution also no use mah.

I do agree that we should import workers for low level jobs under WP that no one want to do. However i do not think FT fits this criteria.

Concern is probably those drawing above 2.5K or more (just an arbitary number). Jobs that generally compete with a larger segment of Singaporeans who are willing to do those jobs and pay. I do not think this is hard fix but there are other implications that requires leadership.

(22-10-2012, 08:25 PM)corydorus Wrote: I do agree that we should import workers for low level jobs under WP that no one want to do. However i do not think FT fits this criteria.
Concern is probably those drawing above 2.5K or more (just an arbitary number). Jobs that generally compete with a larger segment of Singaporeans.

There are only so many Singaporeans. I hardly know of any friends or relatives that are jobless. Maybe I do not know as many people in Singapore.
But, I know quite a few that had quit their job to look for new ones or simply relax at home.

So, since Singaporeans generally do not like to have more foreigners, then we must accept that economic growth can only be gotten from either improve in productivity or creation of higher value industries. If we cannot do that, then we have to accept for a slight growth or no growth in the future.

(22-10-2012, 08:25 PM)corydorus Wrote: I do agree that we should import workers for low level jobs under WP that no one want to do. However i do not think FT fits this criteria.

Concern is probably those drawing above 2.5K or more (just an arbitary number). Jobs that generally compete with a larger segment of Singaporeans who are willing to do those jobs and pay. I do not think this is hard fix but there are other implications that requires leadership.

Say for example, I run a company. I hire 10 workers, doesn't matter to me whether they are Singaporeans or not, as long as they do the job well.

When I interview applicants, the Singaporean tells me he wants $2.5k Malaysian tells me he is willing to accept $2k, the China applicant says he can accept $1.5k. Who should I hire?

Ok, so the govt says, workers with these skills, you cannot pay lower than $2.5k. What do I do? I hire the China man and ask him if he is willing to work overtime and do 2 person's jobs. Or else, I shift my factory/warehouse/office to JB and still hire the China man.

Ok, so the govt says, for this sector, you can only hire Singaporeans. What do I do? Same things, if I can, I move to JB, or Jakarta, or Thailand, where the costs are lower.

Businesses operate to make money. They don't operate for charity, to give citizens well-paid jobs. This is the economic system. Unless we go back to communism, this is the reality we face. So how, how, how?

What is the quality of work you get from the china man vs the others? Buying a cheap PC that gives you problem every now and then may not be a better proposition than say an iPad... that simply works.

Cheapness will come back to haunt if not quality adjusted. In the 90s nobody dare to buy Made in Taiwan goods unless it is inconsequential stuff. Now it is China's turn. Nobody I know would eat something canned or bottled made-in-china.

I'm not saying cost effectiveness is not a factor. I am saying it is not the ONLY factor. Goh has brainwashed many with his Singapore Inc talk which we are reaping the after effect for eg SMRT. These foreigners earn in S$ and spend back home in lower cost countries. This put Singaporeans in structural disadvantage. that's why Singaporeans have to be able to add more value for eg commitment, excellence, integrity, etc than them.

(23-10-2012, 09:46 AM)snowcap Wrote: Businesses operate to make money. They don't operate for charity, to give citizens well-paid jobs. This is the economic system. Unless we go back to communism, this is the reality we face. So how, how, how?

I know of companies that hire a couple (=2) Singaporean workers (1 receptionist and 1 finance admin) and have an office of 20 people who are all foreigners from Europe, China and India (majority). They operate in the engineering services sector, don't make much money, are here only for the low tax rate, and pay about 3-5k for most of the jobs they employ (supposedly design engineers). They have special exemptions from MOM on employment quota on the basis that the skillsets required cannot be found here in Singapore, and they have supposedly based their "regional HQ" here in Singapore. Of course they hire the token locals, to maintain a resemblance of representation. Question : please tell me why (or how how how) are these companies allowed to operate here in Singapore to start with? Is Singapore a charity, to allow such setups to be based here?

The capitalist economic system is not the end all be all - Adam Smith in himself in his work the Wealth of Nations warned of the dangers of relying completely on the invisible hand to drive end results. Yet people choose most of the time to highlight only the slogans of how having profit motive is a force for good.

To understand the predicament that Singapore has found itself in today, you have to trace back 20 years to the fundamental underpinnings of the Singapore society; its education system (small elite vs wider higher education), labour force management (gross input vs productivity growth) and political management (head in the ass vs enlightenment).

But though the interest of the labourer is strictly connected with that of the society, he is incapable either of comprehending that interest, or of understanding its connexion with his own. His condition leaves him no time to receive the necessary information, and his education and habits are commonly such as to render him unfit to judge even though he was fully informed. In the public deliberations, therefore, his voice is little heard and less regarded, except upon some particular occasions, when his clamour is animated, set on, and supported by his employers, not for his, but for their own particular purposes. (Smith, Wealth of Nations, page 218)

(23-10-2012, 09:46 AM)snowcap Wrote:

(22-10-2012, 08:25 PM)corydorus Wrote: I do agree that we should import workers for low level jobs under WP that no one want to do. However i do not think FT fits this criteria.

Concern is probably those drawing above 2.5K or more (just an arbitary number). Jobs that generally compete with a larger segment of Singaporeans who are willing to do those jobs and pay. I do not think this is hard fix but there are other implications that requires leadership.

Say for example, I run a company. I hire 10 workers, doesn't matter to me whether they are Singaporeans or not, as long as they do the job well.

When I interview applicants, the Singaporean tells me he wants $2.5k Malaysian tells me he is willing to accept $2k, the China applicant says he can accept $1.5k. Who should I hire?

Ok, so the govt says, workers with these skills, you cannot pay lower than $2.5k. What do I do? I hire the China man and ask him if he is willing to work overtime and do 2 person's jobs. Or else, I shift my factory/warehouse/office to JB and still hire the China man.

Ok, so the govt says, for this sector, you can only hire Singaporeans. What do I do? Same things, if I can, I move to JB, or Jakarta, or Thailand, where the costs are lower.

Businesses operate to make money. They don't operate for charity, to give citizens well-paid jobs. This is the economic system. Unless we go back to communism, this is the reality we face. So how, how, how?

Don't be smoke screen on fear we go communism or business will not be profitable. I do not think this is completely true as they may sound logical on surface but when we dig deeper there is no depth in the argument.

Look at Australia, Finland, Switzerland where their construction workers can earn more than our managers. Their Economy still good. Their work life balance top. What is happening i feel is Singapore Gov took the easy way out too much on the expense of Singaporeans. Keep in mind we are paying top dollars for them and we should not expects nothing less that other top governments can do well.

(23-10-2012, 09:46 AM)snowcap Wrote: Same things, if I can, I move to JB, or Jakarta, or Thailand, where the costs are lower.

If the business owner is thinking of short term than go on move their business there. Long term, they have to bear in mind of riots, muggings, robbings, bombing, natural disaster and political instability.