Tungsten-Filled 10 Oz Gold Bar Found In The Middle Of Manhattan's Jewelry District

(19-09-2012, 04:45 PM)mysterion Wrote:

(19-09-2012, 04:33 PM)corydorus Wrote: Why not ETF or virtual with reputable bank account. Save the hassle.

Precious metals in bullion form are one of the rare assets with ZERO counter-party risk. So most serious long-term gold/silver investors (or rather savers) would NOT want to save their fiat currency in gold/silver via financial instruments that are prone to such risks.

The idea is that gold and silver can not only serve as an inflation hedge, but also as a systemic hedge against a fiat currency crisis (where financial instruments based on paper assets such as stocks, bonds will be severely affected).

Hardcore gold/silver bugs will tell you that their "investments" into gold and silver aren't truly investments, but rather by buying gold and silver, they are converting their fiat currency into real money.

---

(19-09-2012, 04:39 PM)sgd Wrote: Crooks are smart these days, everything can be faked, computers and precision machinery can do anything there are even fake antique coins around if that can happen how hard will it be to fake gold coins? Minting coins in tungsten metal then dipping them into gold? or gold plating them?

It's much harder to fake coins in precise detail because every type of coin have specific details and designs which are difficult to fake. For example, the depth of ridges, number of ridges, shape of design (maple leaves, american eagles, pandas, koalas etc.).

On the other hand, bars have more margin for error in the counterfeiting due to its limited design and engravings. And it's much easier to fill that huge block of mass (1kg, 100oz etc.) with tungsten compared to filling tiny (1/2 oz, 1 oz) coins with tungsten.

I do invest in gold virtual account with reputable bank. And is registered as ounce in the account. The gov can print as much as they want which my gold value will just grow along with it. The only risk is the bank collapse and then is not much different from cash saving account less gov guaranteed amount.

(19-09-2012, 06:51 PM)corydorus Wrote: I do invest in gold virtual account with reputable bank. And is registered as ounce in the account. The gov can print as much as they want which my gold value will just grow along with it. The only risk is the bank collapse and then is not much different from cash saving account less gov guaranteed amount.

Are your gold holdings in segregated accounts? Can you redeem your gold bullion from your gold virtual account as and when you wish to?

If the answer is no, then you are still susceptible to counter-party risk from the bank, and I am pretty sure the Government Guaranteed Insurance Amount only applies to the first $50,000 per bank for cash savings and fixed deposits. It does not include investment products such as unit trusts and precious metal accounts.

No offence but I just wanna highlight to you the risks of investing in a gold virtual account, which basically just offers you price exposure to the metal based on its spot price.

To me, If you can't hold it, you don't own it (:


Anyway, here's a good video dissecting the counter-party risks involved whilst investing in gold and silver through ETFs. It's probably relevant to gold virtual accounts with banks as well.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l36wa9fZEZk&feature=plcp

(19-09-2012, 10:31 PM)mysterion Wrote:

(19-09-2012, 06:51 PM)corydorus Wrote: I do invest in gold virtual account with reputable bank. And is registered as ounce in the account. The gov can print as much as they want which my gold value will just grow along with it. The only risk is the bank collapse and then is not much different from cash saving account less gov guaranteed amount.

Are your gold holdings in segregated accounts? Can you redeem your gold bullion from your gold virtual account as and when you wish to?

If the answer is no, then you are still susceptible to counter-party risk from the bank, and I am pretty sure the Government Guaranteed Insurance Amount only applies to the first $50,000 per bank for cash savings and fixed deposits. It does not include investment products such as unit trusts and precious metal accounts.

No offence but I just wanna highlight to you the risks of investing in a gold virtual account, which basically just offers you price exposure to the metal based on its spot price.

To me, If you can't hold it, you don't own it (:


Anyway, here's a good video dissecting the counter-party risks involved whilst investing in gold and silver through ETFs. It's probably relevant to gold virtual accounts with banks as well.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l36wa9fZEZk&feature=plcp

It acts like an index. Whether the bank wants to hold the gold reserve or not is up to the bank itself. I do not own the physical gold held by the bank.
Is a bet on the "index" created by the bank which follows the spot price.

There is "no physical" gold movement every time i do my transaction. The bank earns from the transaction and providing a service platform to their customers
However if the price of the gold shoots up, and the bank do not hold any gold, they bear the loses. Same with fake gold if they have bought any.

Cory

(19-09-2012, 04:45 PM)mysterion Wrote: It's much harder to fake coins in precise detail because every type of coin have specific details and designs which are difficult to fake. For example, the depth of ridges, number of ridges, shape of design (maple leaves, american eagles, pandas, koalas etc.).

On the other hand, bars have more margin for error in the counterfeiting due to its limited design and engravings. And it's much easier to fill that huge block of mass (1kg, 100oz etc.) with tungsten compared to filling tiny (1/2 oz, 1 oz) coins with tungsten.

Any suggestions on sellers of Bullion Coins (Maple Leaves, American Eagles, Pandas,...etc.) who're credible and 'cheap' (ie. low markup over gold price)?

I did an online check and found UOB + many Gold cos. (time consuming to check their credibility as many). I thot' Singapore Mint created the Lion Head Bullion coins but I don't see them selling in their site.

I'm getting interested in Physical Investment Gold as there'll be no GST from next month. More as an insurance eg. in case Singapore collapsed and have to become refugee...

(20-09-2012, 09:38 AM)KopiKat Wrote:

(19-09-2012, 04:45 PM)mysterion Wrote: It's much harder to fake coins in precise detail because every type of coin have specific details and designs which are difficult to fake. For example, the depth of ridges, number of ridges, shape of design (maple leaves, american eagles, pandas, koalas etc.).

On the other hand, bars have more margin for error in the counterfeiting due to its limited design and engravings. And it's much easier to fill that huge block of mass (1kg, 100oz etc.) with tungsten compared to filling tiny (1/2 oz, 1 oz) coins with tungsten.

Any suggestions on sellers of Bullion Coins (Maple Leaves, American Eagles, Pandas,...etc.) who're credible and 'cheap' (ie. low markup over gold price)?

I did an online check and found UOB + many Gold cos. (time consuming to check their credibility as many). I thot' Singapore Mint created the Lion Head Bullion coins but I don't see them selling in their site.

I'm getting interested in Physical Investment Gold as there'll be no GST from next month. More as an insurance eg. in case Singapore collapsed and have to become refugee...

Ha! Ha! Agree.
In that case, one gram to maybe 10g bar is better for ease of transaction. i don't think crooks are interested in counterfeiting these. Too little in value - not worth their effort.

(20-09-2012, 01:29 PM)Temperament Wrote:

(20-09-2012, 09:38 AM)KopiKat Wrote:

(19-09-2012, 04:45 PM)mysterion Wrote: It's much harder to fake coins in precise detail because every type of coin have specific details and designs which are difficult to fake. For example, the depth of ridges, number of ridges, shape of design (maple leaves, american eagles, pandas, koalas etc.).

On the other hand, bars have more margin for error in the counterfeiting due to its limited design and engravings. And it's much easier to fill that huge block of mass (1kg, 100oz etc.) with tungsten compared to filling tiny (1/2 oz, 1 oz) coins with tungsten.

Any suggestions on sellers of Bullion Coins (Maple Leaves, American Eagles, Pandas,...etc.) who're credible and 'cheap' (ie. low markup over gold price)?

I did an online check and found UOB + many Gold cos. (time consuming to check their credibility as many). I thot' Singapore Mint created the Lion Head Bullion coins but I don't see them selling in their site.

I'm getting interested in Physical Investment Gold as there'll be no GST from next month. More as an insurance eg. in case Singapore collapsed and have to become refugee...

Ha! Ha! Agree.
In that case, one gram to maybe 10g bar is better for ease of transaction. i don't think crooks are interested in counterfeiting these. Too little in value - not worth their effort.

Hi sgd, wow! very nice pictures. Thanks for sharing.
You just reminded me MAN will do anything for "$WP", isn't it?

you're welcome Temprement,

I remember an article a few months ago claiming that the rich were buying gold by the ton to preserve their wealth.

Wow if that true I think many people may have gotten scammed but don't even know yet. But yes you are probably right to buy metals in small denominations to play safe. However in china they can even fake century eggs what kind of profit is there to be made from faking a preserved duck egg? So based on that I think that it's best to be cautious anyway, my thinking is if there is enough profit in it somebody bound to try scamming it.

This may eventually lead to merchants get jittery and take some "insurance" measures to reduce their exposures to fraud, you could start to see spreads between buying and selling prices increase.

(20-09-2012, 06:45 PM)sgd Wrote: you're welcome Temprement,

I remember an article a few months ago claiming that the rich were buying gold by the ton to preserve their wealth.

Wow if that true I think many people may have gotten scammed but don't even know yet. But yes you are probably right to buy metals in small denominations to play safe. However in china they can even fake century eggs what kind of profit is there to be made from faking a preserved duck egg? So based on that I think that it's best to be cautious anyway, my thinking is if there is enough profit in it somebody bound to try scamming it.

This may eventually lead to merchants get jittery and take some "insurance" measures to reduce their exposures to fraud, you could start to see spreads between buying and selling prices increase.

You may be right, even though it's a small amount, if the demand is massive then it can not be ruled out.

(19-09-2012, 10:31 PM)mysterion Wrote: Anyway, here's a good video dissecting the counter-party risks involved whilst investing in gold and silver through ETFs. It's probably relevant to gold virtual accounts with banks as well.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l36wa9fZEZk&feature=plcp

Good video mysterion. Thanks. I'm looking into physical, but haven't found any other than UOB in Singapore credibly dealing with physical.

LOL! ... see I told you so it's there was enough profit in it, will just be a matter of time.

Get Your Fake Tungsten-Filled Gold Coins Here

story source: zerohedge

In the aftermath of the recent stories about Tungsten-filled 10 ounce gold bars discovered in midtown Manhattan, there have been two broad sentiments expressed by the precious metals community: i) that this is as many have expected, and that of the physical inventory in circulation, much is fake (particularly that held in official hands, either via ETFs or in sovereign repositories which for various reasons still can not be publicly assayed) and ii) is the comfort that while it is relatively easy and cost-effective to use tungsten to falsify larger gold bars and bricks, those who own primarily gold coins are safe as for some reason, it is less economic, feasible or widespread to counterfeit smaller precious metal denominations. Sadly, while i) may be true, ii) is patently false. The proof comes courtesy of a firm called ChinaTungsten Online which proudly markets its broad "tungsten-alloy services" including, you guessed it, the gold plating of various tungsten formulations among them "gold" bricks, bars and, yes, coins. Oh did we mention a Chinese company openly advertizes its tungsten gold-plating and precious metals replication services, something which the tabloid media's CTRL-C/V majors openly mock as improbable conspiracy theory. Well, as they say, it is only conspiracy theory until it becomes conspiracy fact.

From the website's Tungsten Heavy Alloy Scan Gold Coin section:

Quote:Tungsten is the only lower value metal that has a specific density close enough to gold to fabricate passable counterfeit pieces of the same size and weight as genuine Pictures of tungsten fake gold coins and ingots. Over the years, there have been a few isolated reports of smaller tungsten fake gold coin found to have been drilled to remove some of the gold which was replaced with tungsten. However, tungsten fake gold coin is far more profitable to fabricate larger original bars of tungsten that are then scanning gold.

Because the existence of counterfeit tungsten fake gold coin could have such a huge impact on the financial markets, there is a huge potential for deception and misinformation to be passed around. Be very careful about automatically believing any story you may hear. For your own protection, tungsten fake gold coin would be better to take physical possession of the smaller sizes of tungsten fake gold coins and now, and know that what you own genuine solid tungsten fake gold coin. [ZH: reread that sentence: "genuine solid tungsten fake gold coin"]

Notice: Chinatungsten Online (Xiamen) Manu.& Sales Corp. is a very professional and serious company, specializing in manufacturing and selling tungsten fake gold coin and other tungsten related products for more than two decades. We are a professional tungsten fake gold coin manufacturer. Our tungsten gold fake coin is only for souvenir and decoration purpose. Here we declare: Please do not use our tungsten fake gold coin and other fake gold coin products for any illegal purpose. We can provide all kinds of tungsten fake gold coin as your requirements.Our tungsten fake gold coin products are qualified

[Image: tungsten-gold-plated_1.jpg][Image: tungsten-gold-plated_2.jpg][Image: tungsten-gold-substitution-01.jpg][Image: tungsten-gold-substitution-02.jpg][Image: tungsten-gold-substitution-02.jpg][Image: tungsten%20gold%20coins.jpg]

gold plated tungsten picture source: China Tungsten Online

There are many more options, for those who are so inclined, to reinforce their inventory of gold-plated tungsten products on the company's website. And naturally, in addition to the bolded applications of tungsten gold bars, one can conceive of some more. Especially in verticals in which the actual end product does not exist, and all that does exist is a receipt claiming gold is at the end of a rehypotehcation chain. One wonder how many invoices CIF Liberty 33 or various other gold ETF secret "warehouses" one could find upon rummaging through the garbage behind the firm's headquarters in Xiamen.

With all that said, perhaps the best use of the abovementioned services would be for a contingency case in which the government of country X, Y and/or Z were to decide to replicate a certain 1930's executive order in a global coordinated attempt to devalue the fiat system not on a relative basis, something which fiat printers are more than capable of, but on an absolute basis by confiscating all the gold in circulation. It just might make such a confiscation more complicated if all the usual suspects were to hand over to said governments not gold but gold-plated Tungsten, which in turn would make the endgame, i.e. the terminal currency devaluation of fiat, that much more problematic.

It would be truly ironic if in the end the same Tungsten that is now the bane of precious metals dealers everywhere would be the reason why central bank X, Y and/or Z was unable to destroy its currency sufficient fast.

Note: Zero Hedge does not advise, encourage nor endorse its readers to hypothetically exchange their gold inventory for a comparable but worthless yet prominently positioned inventory of "rehypothecated" pseudo-equivalent products - note that only bankers have been known to rehypothecate valuable assets into worthless liabilities - in advance of an even more hypothetical physical gold confiscation order endorsed by the authorities.