8I Holdings Limited (ASX:8IH)

(12-12-2018, 10:27 PM)Bosco Wrote: For those people who are going to sign up for his course, take it from someone who used to trust in his vision, with my time, and money. I’ve renewed my mcircle multiple times, and each time when he sold us the pre-IPO deals, I did not suspect anything. I believe in his grand vision of wanting to build a hundred millionaires from his mcircle community, and eventually turning 8IH into a billion dollar cap company.
When he sold us DMC, we were told it’s a very fast grower company. To put it up there with google and Facebook, DMC has the potential to grow. But later did I know we were the suckers he sold the inflated business to, making our cheques payable to Champion Star.
A five figure loss is a hard grit to bite. But if someone were to tell me any of this earlier, it would’ve mitigated the pain a lot. That said, I like Sean Seah, I wonder if his vision and Ken’s are aligned, or if he knows any of this before he sold Financial Joy Institute to 8IH (which in itself isn’t a fair deal because part of it is swapped with 8IH’s shares). If not, like the other analysts and the CFO before him, I’ll only attend his course when he leaves 8IH.


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I think they learnt a lesson and dare not to boost to build a hundred millionaires anymore.
The revise goal (from their presentation) is Impact Lives... impact 10,000 lives every year. I presume positive impact live. lol.

Are such companies in the business of selling financial products, or selling financial education?

Selling financial products?

If it is the former, then the quality of the product that is sold should by now be clear to anyone who has bought it, or any bystander. There is no doubt that customers are unhappy with what they have bought, and may seek redress/compensation from the company they bought the product from. There is also the issue of how the products -- which appear to have characteristics of a Collective Investment Scheme -- were sold, and whether a license from MAS to do so was granted to do so. In any case, this should not shift responsibility of performing due diligence away from the customer. I once bought overpriced ferry tickets from an illegitimate ticket seller. I was upset, but I also should have been more wary of the intentions of a friendly and fluent English-speaking Vietnamese.

Unlicensed sales of financial products -- whether it be loans to buyers of Japanese homes, or equity in durian plantations in Malaysia -- has been around for a long time, although always in different forms, but will undoubtedly continue to exist. The onus is on oneself to be discerning. 

Or selling financial education?

If it is the latter, the situation is more murky.

The quality of the financial education products are harder to discern, because different people -- with their different abilities -- will have different takeaways. Some customers will be very happy with what was taught. Some will think they learnt nothing. Whichever type of customer one might be, there is usually no recourse for an unsatisfied purchase. Unless, it was promised that the course will help you get x returns in y time -- or other deliverable made clear at the beginning -- there is no case for the customer to complain. But of course, no seller of financial education will make such promises. 

In any case, I venture that most customers of financial education products are not there to truly learn anyway. To be in the presence of a financial 'rock star' who spews the secrets and wisdom of money making is exciting. Furthermore, the rock stars are not only excellent entertainers, they give hope to the fulfilment of our financial dreams. If someone can motivate you to better yourself and achieve more, that is not a bad thing, and may perhaps, even be life changing. How much is too much to pay for such an experience? Just ask the numerous attendees of such courses, whom by now would have realised they were sold -- and paid for -- both financial products and financial education, when it was only financial education they wanted.

Can such courses enable one to be a competent investor, anyway?

A child of about 5 years of age who is learning to swim takes about 2 years of twice-weekly sessions to be able to swim the freestyle, with complete confidence from the child and parent. It takes about another year to learn the breast stroke and backstroke. And then another for the butterfly. So it is four years of consistent learning to be able to perform the four swimming strokes with correct form. But the child is not yet ready to compete. It will be another 2 to 3 years of 4-5 times a week, and with longer hours each session, before a child is ready to compete. At that point, whether a child is able to win at competitions will be a clear demonstration of the coach's ability. 

The simple fact is that it takes many years of learning, and then practice, to be good at anything. And it is the same with investing. Those that tell you otherwise, that they can somehow shortcut your learning -- pardon me for saying -- are lying to you. Or, if you believe it, then -- pardon me again -- you are kidding yourself. Will a rational adult send his child to a 2 day 'crash course' on learning to swim? If that sounds foolish because 2 days is an  impossible amount of time to learn to swim, why will said adult put himself, and consequently his investment portfolio, in such a position? Unless, said adult thinks he is already a competent swimmer, and only needs his strokes to be observed and slightly corrected by the very experienced coach. For some, this may be true, for most, this is not likely to be the case.

For the admittedly novice, the danger -- upon completing certain financial education courses and achieving some profitable experience in small trades -- is in mistaking swimming in the wading pool with swimming in an Olympic pool. As soon as the novice swimmer realises of his inability during mid-length, and struggles to feel the bottom of the pool with his feet, panic ensues. Some will struggle to the other side, but not before swallowing big gulps of water; and upon realisation of his near-death experience, develop a lifelong aversion of water bodies. 

Others, being so mesmerised by the charm of their 'coach' -- none of whom by the way, has produced any verified track record of their portfolio -- continue to listen to said 'charismatic coach,' or simply move on to other charismatic coaches. The logical thing would be to conclude that none of such 'coaches' could be counted on by the novice to achieve competence. 

The child that has spent 7 to 10 years in the pool will be competent. And even if the child does not win at competitions, there is very little chance -- only in the most unusual/rare of circumstance -- that said child will drown. Luckily, in investing, there are no limits to the number of winners. If one is competent, one will win something, or at least not drown. 


As always, if money has somehow been lost -- whether from financial education, financial products, or oneself's own mistakes -- learn what you can from the experience, and then move on.

Wow.. this thread is very insightful.

I was thinking of going for their course. But after reading this, I think it warrants a bit more research.

What about their latest wealthpark platform? Is it any good?

Personally, I think before signing up for any investment course(not any company in particular), it is always good to research more; preferably by talking to people who have attended or at the very least, there are many stories/experiences shared on various forums which one can read for reference.

It is always better to make an educated/informed decision.

Just like many books & seminars talking about almost the same investing concepts, there are not many people who really know the various industries/companies inside out. For e.g. when I first started, I lost quite a bit of money reading various analysts' reports. I have since learnt that to invest successfully, you have to know more about the company(that you are interested to invest in) AND industry(it operates in) than ALL the analysts covering the company you are interested in(demonstrating that you hv achieved a certain level of competence). This means, at the very least, you can take any analyst report about the company you are interested in and know enough to challenge the facts and figures. Only then can one predict the earnings/cash flow more accurately, and arrive at a close-to-ideal valuation for the company.

I do NOT demean the analysts, but the fact is they simply do not have the luxury to sit there and analyze 1 or 2 companies 24*7; there are many other things one needs to do or one needs to handle in any job nowadays.

For myself, I wld prefer enrolling in a course by a company teaching about value investing showing the actual investments(real life
buy/sell transactions) they hv made in real portfolios(e.g. SG, HK, US), and then demonstrate they can make higher than average returns over 10-20 year period(i.e. cover a few economic cycles). Then students can follow their live transactions and invest accordingly.

(13-12-2018, 12:36 PM)karlmarx Wrote: Are such companies in the business of selling financial products, or selling financial education?

Selling financial products?

If it is the former, then the quality of the product that is sold should by now be clear to anyone who has bought it, or any bystander. There is no doubt that customers are unhappy with what they have bought, and may seek redress/compensation from the company they bought the product from. There is also the issue of how the products -- which appear to have characteristics of a Collective Investment Scheme -- were sold, and whether a license from MAS to do so was granted to do so. In any case, this should not shift responsibility of performing due diligence away from the customer. I once bought overpriced ferry tickets from an illegitimate ticket seller. I was upset, but I also should have been more wary of the intentions of a friendly and fluent English-speaking Vietnamese.

Unlicensed sales of financial products -- whether it be loans to buyers of Japanese homes, or equity in durian plantations in Malaysia -- has been around for a long time, although always in different forms, but will undoubtedly continue to exist. The onus is on oneself to be discerning. 

Or selling financial education?

If it is the latter, the situation is more murky.

The quality of the financial education products are harder to discern, because different people -- with their different abilities -- will have different takeaways. Some customers will be very happy with what was taught. Some will think they learnt nothing. Whichever type of customer one might be, there is usually no recourse for an unsatisfied purchase. Unless, it was promised that the course will help you get x returns in y time -- or other deliverable made clear at the beginning -- there is no case for the customer to complain. But of course, no seller of financial education will make such promises. 

In any case, I venture that most customers of financial education products are not there to truly learn anyway. To be in the presence of a financial 'rock star' who spews the secrets and wisdom of money making is exciting. Furthermore, the rock stars are not only excellent entertainers, they give hope to the fulfilment of our financial dreams. If someone can motivate you to better yourself and achieve more, that is not a bad thing, and may perhaps, even be life changing. How much is too much to pay for such an experience? Just ask the numerous attendees of such courses, whom by now would have realised they were sold -- and paid for -- both financial products and financial education, when it was only financial education they wanted.

Can such courses enable one to be a competent investor, anyway?

A child of about 5 years of age who is learning to swim takes about 2 years of twice-weekly sessions to be able to swim the freestyle, with complete confidence from the child and parent. It takes about another year to learn the breast stroke and backstroke. And then another for the butterfly. So it is four years of consistent learning to be able to perform the four swimming strokes with correct form. But the child is not yet ready to compete. It will be another 2 to 3 years of 4-5 times a week, and with longer hours each session, before a child is ready to compete. At that point, whether a child is able to win at competitions will be a clear demonstration of the coach's ability. 

The simple fact is that it takes many years of learning, and then practice, to be good at anything. And it is the same with investing. Those that tell you otherwise, that they can somehow shortcut your learning -- pardon me for saying -- are lying to you. Or, if you believe it, then -- pardon me again -- you are kidding yourself. Will a rational adult send his child to a 2 day 'crash course' on learning to swim? If that sounds foolish because 2 days is an  impossible amount of time to learn to swim, why will said adult put himself, and consequently his investment portfolio, in such a position? Unless, said adult thinks he is already a competent swimmer, and only needs his strokes to be observed and slightly corrected by the very experienced coach. For some, this may be true, for most, this is not likely to be the case.

For the admittedly novice, the danger -- upon completing certain financial education courses and achieving some profitable experience in small trades -- is in mistaking swimming in the wading pool with swimming in an Olympic pool. As soon as the novice swimmer realises of his inability during mid-length, and struggles to feel the bottom of the pool with his feet, panic ensues. Some will struggle to the other side, but not before swallowing big gulps of water; and upon realisation of his near-death experience, develop a lifelong aversion of water bodies. 

Others, being so mesmerised by the charm of their 'coach' -- none of whom by the way, has produced any verified track record of their portfolio -- continue to listen to said 'charismatic coach,' or simply move on to other charismatic coaches. The logical thing would be to conclude that none of such 'coaches' could be counted on by the novice to achieve competence. 

The child that has spent 7 to 10 years in the pool will be competent. And even if the child does not win at competitions, there is very little chance -- only in the most unusual/rare of circumstance -- that said child will drown. Luckily, in investing, there are no limits to the number of winners. If one is competent, one will win something, or at least not drown. 


As always, if money has somehow been lost -- whether from financial education, financial products, or oneself's own mistakes -- learn what you can from the experience, and then move on.

Very well said karlmarx!

I hope every individual goes thru' this post before he/ she makes his/ her first investment. The smart ones will make a few initial mistakes and then start learning. But for the majority, burning their fingers a few times will be enough to put them off from investing for a lifetime....

I hope every novice investor has the good fortune of discovering valuebuddies before it is too late!

(15-12-2018, 03:59 PM)dreamybear Wrote: I have since learnt that to invest successfully, you have to know more about the company(that you are interested to invest in) AND industry(it operates in) than ALL the analysts covering the company you are interested in(demonstrating that you hv achieved a certain level of competence). This means, at the very least, you can take any analyst report about the company you are interested in and know enough to challenge the facts and figures. Only then can one predict the earnings/cash flow more accurately, and arrive at a close-to-ideal valuation for the company.

That would be ideal, but that also takes far more effort and time than most are willing/able to muster. In addition, the conclusion that one may reach at the end of such a research process -- whether the company is indeed worth buying at present prices -- may not be what the prospector is expecting. Will you still buy it anyway, since you have spent so much time on it, or move on to research the next stock, and risk 'wasting' your time again? Sometimes the prospector finds mineable resources, sometimes he finds resources that are not yet economic to mine, and sometimes he find nothing. 

(15-12-2018, 03:59 PM)dreamybear Wrote: I wld prefer enrolling in a course by a company teaching about value investing showing the actual investments(real life 

buy/sell transactions) they hv made in real portfolios(e.g. SG, HK, US), and then demonstrate they can make higher than average returns over 10-20 year period(i.e. cover a few economic cycles). Then students can follow their live transactions and invest accordingly.

This is actually what most of such course attendees are looking for. Not to learn the skill, but to be told/hinted what to buy. So what is really wanted is a professional/successful stock picker.

Professional/successful stock pickers don't just give their stock picks away; their research is the reserved privilege of their paying clients. 

So what these course attendees should really be doing, is to put their money with a professional money manager, of whatever approach/style that they are looking for. So attendees to 'value investing courses' -- who are there really to be told what value stocks to buy -- should in fact be paying a value-oriented fund manager to manage their money for them.

Unfortunately, fund managers of any unique orientation -- AI-assisted, quantitative, value, etc -- are usually managing hedge funds, which accept only Accredited Investor (i.e. rich) clients. Non-AI investors only have access to traditional mutual funds, which are mostly index huggers. There may be value-oriented funds found on FSM, I'm not sure.

Assuming that such 'unique orientation' funds do not exist on FSM, this means that there is a market demand for value-oriented funds that is accessible to retail investors, but it is not being met. Since the professional managers cannot serve this market, guess who steps in to fill this demand? 

Even though the regulator's intent is to protect retail investors from the 'unconventional methods' employed by hedge funds, it seems that retailers will still find their own ways to gain exposure to 'unconventional methods,' and in so doing hurt themselves.

Since regulations on retail participation in hedge funds are unlikely to change, conductors of 2-days value investing courses and salesmen of quack investment schemes will exist indefinitely. 

The best solution/alternative for retail investors who wish to have their money managed in a value orientation may be to purchase shares in Berkshire Hathaway.

If a retail investor only wants good stock picks but is unwilling to do his own research and/or pay a professional, then it is inevitable that he will be serviced by those that are less than professional.

(15-12-2018, 07:05 PM)sgmystique Wrote: I hope every individual goes thru' this post before he/ she makes his/ her first investment. The smart ones will make a few initial mistakes and then start learning. But for the majority, burning their fingers a few times will be enough to put them off from investing for a lifetime....

I hope every novice investor has the good fortune of discovering valuebuddies before it is too late!

VB has vast resources for anyone willing to learn. I am very thankful for its existence. None other comes close to the quality of discussions that can be found here.

On this note, the administrators deserves special mention, for the generous service done in maintaining the site at own expense. The moderators have also done a wonderful job ensuring that the site maintains its intellectual integrity.

(12-12-2018, 09:56 PM)Ray168 Wrote: Some observation of 8IVC

1. China branch was hot in 2017. But now it was drop from the group. 
   
2. New CEO annual remuneration is $144K. Is he one of the board member or just a employee?
   
3. Could not find the share holding information. Anyone has insight? 
   
4. Clive is Non-executive Chairman .... so he is passive now?
   
5. Where is Sean? He was 8VIC CEO isn't it? 
   

So does this change means that the 2 founders of 8IH were kick out?
Lol.


Above is just a personal opinion. 

I think you might miss something. 8I Holdings Limited is the parent of 8VIC and still active: https://www.8iholdings.com/
Ken Chee and Clive Tan are employed in this holding. The China activities are held in this holding (not sure why it's not under 8VIC), as well as the property business, the Hidden Champions Fund and some other activities.

Sean Seah was indeed 8VIC CEO and has now disappeared from all written materials. There is also no announcement of his contract being terminated. It reminds me a bit of the disappearance of KB Kee. Maybe Sean Seah is also gone?

Sorry... I have a noob question.

I read somewhere that there is a change in Chairman of 8IH. It seems like he’s stepping down or something. Would it affect 8IH shares? I bought some a while back just to try-try so I’m just wondering if I should hold, buy more or cut loss.

(23-12-2018, 06:34 PM)Investorguy888 Wrote: Sorry... I have a noob question.

I read somewhere that there is a change in Chairman of 8IH. It seems like he’s stepping down or something. Would it affect 8IH shares? I bought some a while back just to try-try so I’m just wondering if I should hold, buy more or cut loss.

No change in 8IH board members. 8IH board

They use 3R investing strategy... so do you think that 8IH and/or 8VIC meet the 3R?