Sarine Technologies

(22-01-2018, 08:53 AM)bardsmanship Wrote: Some bad news: https://iiprd.wordpress.com/2017/10/18/s...ation-ors/

I am not a lawyer, but what I got out of the analysis is that a judge in India decided that Sarine's copyright on their Advisor software may not have been infringed on by one of their competitors in India, Divora Bhandari Corporation, which produces the Mandakini Work Manager software. The reasoning is that only the functional aspects of the software are the same, the implementation and source code may be completely different (to be evaluated by an independent expert). Only the expression of ideas is protected under copyright law, not the ideas themselves. However, since the extension files generated by the Mandakini Work Manager is the same as that generated by the Advisor, if Sarine has the relevant patent(s) they may be able to argue for patent infringement.

Another lawsuit that Sarine had against the same company: https://iiprd.wordpress.com/2017/10/18/c...-petition/

I was also able to find some of the court documents here: https://indiankanoon.org/search/?formInp...mostrecent

I believe the above article which is dated 18 Oct 2017 is superseded by the below 18 Jan 2018 article.
Divora Bhandari Corporation & Ors could be one of the 14 Surat-based companies stated in the below article. 

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city...s?from=mdr

Both articles discuss the same issue; whether Sarine's competitors can create and use a software that performs in a manner that is similar to Sarine's.

If what the defendant claims is true, that the competitor's source code is original, then it may mean that even if the court rules in favour of Sarine, there may be another competitor in the future who produces another software that is similar to Sarine, but different enough to not be sued for copyright infringement. I imagine plenty of software developers in India are financially motivated to try their hands at producing a cheaper alternative to Sarine's Advisor system.

The interface of both IOS and Android are largely similar. Why can't the inclusion mapping industry have another software that competes with Sarine?

(26-01-2018, 11:46 PM)karlmarx Wrote: Both articles discuss the same issue; whether Sarine's competitors can create and use a software that performs in a manner that is similar to Sarine's.

If what the defendant claims is true, that the competitor's source code is original, then it may mean that even if the court rules in favour of Sarine, there may be another competitor in the future who produces another software that is similar to Sarine, but different enough to not be sued for copyright infringement. I imagine plenty of software developers in India are financially motivated to try their hands at producing a cheaper alternative to Sarine's Advisor system.

The interface of both IOS and Android are largely similar. Why can't the inclusion mapping industry have another software that competes with Sarine?

I could be wrong, but just for the sake of discussion. Basically, Sarine Advisor is a rough planning software, which fully integrates with Sarine’s Galaxy family of inclusion scanning systems. So technically Sarine supplies both the hardware and software. 
Perhaps it is like someone developing a pirated IOS system (jailbreak operating system) to use iPhones. Yes, given the fact that there are Andriod phones... but technically there are features and hardware superiority of iPhones that Andriod phones do not have. And Galaxy could have that superiority in the diamond grading sector.
And unlike software, I think it takes a certain amount of capital to create Galaxy bases (and create a network effect). And that is Sarine's cash cow (the recurring revenue which is from the Galaxy bases). Which could be a financial hurdle for other companies operating from a low capital base. Developing software might be a cheaper way to disrupt (rather than developing grading bases as well).. so the key for Sarine is to patent their software (like how Apple does it).

@apenquotes I agree with your point about the integration of Sarine Advisor with the Galaxy inclusion mapping systems. If competing software aren't allowed to generate files with the same extension that the Galaxy systems can read, that could make it harder for competitors to displace Sarine, assuming these competitors don't also come up with their own inclusion mapping systems that are accepted by the market.

But what do you mean when you mention that there a network effect? How does it benefit Sarine customers when there are more companies / people using the Galaxy systems?

I imagine there could be a network effect for the automated Clarity and Colour grading machines since the more stones that are graded the better the machines get at grading (due to machine learning), but I don't think the Galaxy systems have this sort of algorithms incorporated.

Edit: Ah, I think you might be confused; the Galaxy systems aren't for grading diamonds, they're for mapping the inclusions (impurities / imperfections) of rough diamonds, which help cutters and polishers maximize the yield of the rough stones (because one of the 4Cs in diamond grading is Clarity). There are actually competitors to the Galaxy systems in the market, like Octonus' Immersion Glass technology, which is technically superior, but more expensive, and so the market acceptance is lower because most cutters and polishers operate businesses with low profit margins.

(28-01-2018, 12:11 AM)bardsmanship Wrote: @apenquotes I agree with your point about the integration of Sarine Advisor with the Galaxy inclusion mapping systems. If competing software aren't allowed to generate files with the same extension that the Galaxy systems can read, that could make it harder for competitors to displace Sarine, assuming they don't also come up with their own inclusion mapping systems that are accepted by the market.

But what do you mean when you mention that there a network effect? How does it benefit Sarine customers when there are more companies / people using the Galaxy systems?

I imagine there could be a network effect for the automated Clarity and Colour grading machines since the more stones that are graded the better the machines get at grading (due to machine learning), but I don't think the Galaxy systems have this sort of algorithms incorporated.

Edit: Ah, I think you might be confused; the Galaxy systems aren't for grading diamonds, they're for mapping the inclusions (impurities) of rough diamonds, which help cutters and polishers maximize the yield of the rough stones (because one of the 4Cs in diamond grading is Clarity). There are actually competitors to the Galaxy systems in the market, like Octonus' Immersion Glass technology, which is technically superior, but more expensive, and so the market acceptance is lower because most cutters and polishers operate businesses with low profit margins.

Hi, bardsmanship, 

Thanks for pointing out. Yes, the Galaxy system is for rough diamonds (in the upstream sector) and not the grading of polished diamonds. I shouldn't term the Galaxy bases as grading bases.

My point of the network effect is that as more customers use the Galaxy bases and more bases are created, prices could be brought down. For one - Sarine could earn more via fees or rental. As you mentioned most cutters and polishers operate businesses with low-profit margins, hence, the cost is a major factor in their decision.

And as the validation of the system is increased, the acceptance of it among manufacturers would be more.
I like to think that there might a network effect with these Galaxy bases. 

Nevertheless, Sarine has started expanding their recurring revenue via increasing market penetration via sales programs utilizing Sarine Profile.

@apenquotes

Yes, I see what you mean now. The terminology you use is confusing though, because network effects are a form of demand-side economies of scale, but what you are referring to (Sarine being able to bring down the costs of making the Galaxy systems due to having more customers) is supply-side economies of scale.

The classic example of a network effect is that of a social network like Facebook, where a greater number of users increases the value of the network to each user, which in turn makes it more likely for even more users to join. 

Anyway, I'm not holding my breath for the Sarine Profile to start contributing significantly to either Sarine's top or bottom lines - the market for that is just too small unless Sarine can increase the price they charge diamond retailers, or find some other way of expanding the addressable market. I'm more hopeful that their foray into grading diamonds themselves will have more of an impact.

(28-01-2018, 09:00 PM)apenquotes Wrote: Hi, bardsmanship, 

Thanks for pointing out. Yes, the Galaxy system is for rough diamonds (in the upstream sector) and not the grading of polished diamonds. I shouldn't term the Galaxy bases as grading bases.

My point of the network effect is that as more customers use the Galaxy bases and more bases are created, prices could be brought down. For one - Sarine could earn more via fees or rental. As you mentioned most cutters and polishers operate businesses with low-profit margins, hence, the cost is a major factor in their decision.

And as the validation of the system is increased, the acceptance of it among manufacturers would be more.
I like to think that there might a network effect with these Galaxy bases. 

Nevertheless, Sarine has started expanding their recurring revenue via increasing market penetration via sales programs utilizing Sarine Profile.

I don't wish to be very academical over here. But just for clarity sake and not to confuse new VBs,

A network effect is present when the systems get more sticky or better, with more users. Eg. of companies enjoying network effects are credit card companies like Mastercard/Visa, social networks like Facebook/Wechat or ride hailing companies like Uber/Grab.

You probably meant that it is easier for Galaxy systems to scale since it is mainly fixed costs and marginal costs (cost to scale) are comparatively lower.

(28-01-2018, 11:09 PM)weijian Wrote:

(28-01-2018, 09:00 PM)apenquotes Wrote: Hi, bardsmanship, 

Thanks for pointing out. Yes, the Galaxy system is for rough diamonds (in the upstream sector) and not the grading of polished diamonds. I shouldn't term the Galaxy bases as grading bases.

My point of the network effect is that as more customers use the Galaxy bases and more bases are created, prices could be brought down. For one - Sarine could earn more via fees or rental. As you mentioned most cutters and polishers operate businesses with low-profit margins, hence, the cost is a major factor in their decision.

And as the validation of the system is increased, the acceptance of it among manufacturers would be more.
I like to think that there might a network effect with these Galaxy bases. 

Nevertheless, Sarine has started expanding their recurring revenue via increasing market penetration via sales programs utilizing Sarine Profile.

I don't wish to be very academical over here. But just for clarity sake and not to confuse new VBs,

A network effect is present when the systems get more sticky or better, with more users. Eg. of companies enjoying network effects are credit card companies like Mastercard/Visa, social networks like Facebook/Wechat or ride hailing companies like Uber/Grab.

You probably meant that it is easier for Galaxy systems to scale since it is mainly fixed costs and marginal costs (cost to scale) are comparatively lower.

Thank you for the clarification. However, more importantly, I hope Sarine overcome the legal / copyright issue and increase their recurring revenue.

De Beers to Sell Diamonds Made in a Lab
May 29, 2018
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/...e-diamonds

Some excerpts from the article:

'The move is a historic shift for the world’s biggest diamond miner, which vowed for years that it wouldn’t sell stones created in laboratories. The diamonds will be marketed in the U.S. under the name Lightbox, a fashion jewelry brand, and sell for a fraction of the price of mined gems.'

'“Lightbox will transform the lab-grown diamond sector by offering consumers a lab-grown product they have told us they want but aren’t getting: affordable fashion jewelry that may not be forever, but is perfect for right now,” said Bruce Cleaver, chief executive officer of De Beers.'

'There’s been increasing concern in the industry that expensive diamonds aren’t appealing to millennial consumers, who are often more likely to spend on high-priced electronics or vacations. Diamonds have also come under fire for environmental and human-rights concerns related to mining in poor communities in Africa.'

'Unlike imitation gems such as cubic zirconia, diamonds grown in labs have the same physical characteristics and chemical makeup as mined stones. They’re made from a carbon seed placed in a microwave chamber and superheated into a glowing plasma ball. The process creates particles that can eventually crystallize into diamonds in 10 weeks. The technology is so advanced that experts need a machine to distinguish between synthesized and mined gems.'

...

If it requires a machine to tell a real from a fake, you can be sure that most will go for the fake which costs only a tenth of the real. There's no way your dinner guests can claim that you're wearing a fake -- except perhaps it looks like something (a ridiculously huge diamond) you can barely afford -- so there's no worry of embarrassment.

There'll still be purists. But these are likely to be people with money overflowing from their closets.

There will be purists going for vinyl

But I guess the long term prospect of the diamond industry’s moat should be flawlessly clear (pun intended)

(24-11-2017, 08:19 AM)specuvestor Wrote: I’m no expert in this but are women able to differentiate between lab and natural diamonds? That to me is the proof of the pudding

(24-11-2017, 11:47 AM)specuvestor Wrote: What is the purpose of diamonds? Vanity. Same with branded bags.

Fake diamonds in the past is too obvious. So were fake bags. Now not so obvious. That's why affluents going much higher end to Hermes because you can't really tell a Prada from fake anymore but you can sort of tell if the person can afford Hermes Tai-tais  are not going to ask for diamond grading certificates

That's the world of vanity they operate in. So if lab diamonds and real diamonds cannot be distinguishable, my guess is that it will have huge impact on diamond industry, provided the lab diamonds are able to break in. Sometimes it's mere politics, not quality. If lab diamonds manage to get a foothold in the market, I would say it WILL impact Sarine.

And we all know what is the value of diamonds in secondary market because of De Beers.