Investment for a living

(09-03-2015, 10:52 AM)opmi Wrote:

(09-03-2015, 10:10 AM)sgd Wrote: Another way getting higher return other than investing in stock market is to strike out invest in your own business, see an opportunity or a gap perhaps and think can strike out on your own you should able to get more than 10% a year undercutting your ex-employer that's also doing something by yourself for a living. yes there's some risk but it shouldn't be high because the track record is there if you already doing working for someone so it's proof that is workable and there's ready pool of clientele who need it.

One of my relative did this saw a gap in his ex-coy and left to do himself, very niche market 1 man show low overheads, owns a nice place nice car go on nice holidays every year, should be getting "pretty good returns".

Usually investors and businessman are quite opposite in personality.
Passive vs Active
Pessimistic vs Optimistic
Think/Talk first vs Do first.

Generally, I think investors quite 'nua' one, and not suitable for business.

Watched TW talkshow recently:-

To invest a business operated by others, you need 三本"
本行 - operator must be from that industry/sector
本金 - operator must come with own capital
本人- operator must run himself, full time.

How can I forget about Paullow? Businessman cum Investor. So I guess this sentence is not really valid. I am sure there are several few other businessmen cum investors here.

And also, the quote from Graham at the top, "Investment is most prudent when it is most business-like".

So I guess good businessmen and good investors are likely not much of a different. And maybe that is why I am bad in my investments.

(11-03-2015, 07:15 AM)funman168 Wrote: hi ntl,
my own estimation is
single, 500k cap, 25k pa
couple, 800k cap, 40k pa
family, >1M, >60k pa

(11-03-2015, 06:08 AM)NTL Wrote:

(10-03-2015, 11:09 PM)soros Wrote: In an earlier post, Big Toe has mentioned needing to invest $2-$3 Million for " living modestly ".

Assuming the mortgage has been paid off and not running a car , what do members consider the minimum annual income for 12 months is required for modest living by a retired person .?

If just consider 1 person, somewhere around $1500/mth (present value) will be good enough. For a couple, it will be $2500/mth. If based on 5% return, will need $600k invested, and additional saving of $150k for 5yrs of expenses.

So having savings of 500K , one person can invest in 10 different reits each paying say 5% - 6% dividend and able to gain 25K or more annual income.

(11-03-2015, 12:41 PM)soros Wrote:

(11-03-2015, 07:15 AM)funman168 Wrote: hi ntl,
my own estimation is
single, 500k cap, 25k pa
couple, 800k cap, 40k pa
family, >1M, >60k pa

(11-03-2015, 06:08 AM)NTL Wrote:

(10-03-2015, 11:09 PM)soros Wrote: In an earlier post, Big Toe has mentioned needing to invest $2-$3 Million for " living modestly ".

Assuming the mortgage has been paid off and not running a car , what do members consider the minimum annual income for 12 months is required for modest living by a retired person .?

If just consider 1 person, somewhere around $1500/mth (present value) will be good enough. For a couple, it will be $2500/mth. If based on 5% return, will need $600k invested, and additional saving of $150k for 5yrs of expenses.

So having savings of 500K , one person can invest in 10 different reits each paying say 5% - 6% dividend and able to gain 25K or more annual income.

QED! Eureka!
Me has been tempted to think in this way too.
All cash flow problems solved.
If you know what happened to Reits like CAPMALL TRUST, ASCENDAS REITS, CAPMALLCOM, etc.... during the 2008/2009 subprime crisis, you will have second thoughts.
If only so simple, how I wish.

(11-03-2015, 02:29 PM)Temperament Wrote:

(11-03-2015, 12:41 PM)soros Wrote:

(11-03-2015, 07:15 AM)funman168 Wrote: hi ntl,
my own estimation is
single, 500k cap, 25k pa
couple, 800k cap, 40k pa
family, >1M, >60k pa

(11-03-2015, 06:08 AM)NTL Wrote:

(10-03-2015, 11:09 PM)soros Wrote: In an earlier post, Big Toe has mentioned needing to invest $2-$3 Million for " living modestly ".

Assuming the mortgage has been paid off and not running a car , what do members consider the minimum annual income for 12 months is required for modest living by a retired person .?

If just consider 1 person, somewhere around $1500/mth (present value) will be good enough. For a couple, it will be $2500/mth. If based on 5% return, will need $600k invested, and additional saving of $150k for 5yrs of expenses.

So having savings of 500K , one person can invest in 10 different reits each paying say 5% - 6% dividend and able to gain 25K or more annual income.

QED! Eureka!
Me has been tempted to think in this way too.
All cash flow problems solved.
If you know what happened to Reits like CAPMALL TRUST, ASCENDAS REITS, CAPMALLCOM, etc.... during the 2008/2009 subprime crisis, you will have second thoughts.
If only so simple, how I wish.

Diversify, diversify, diversify! Don't just stick to REiTs, buy shares of companies that offer high dividend too! Don't just stick to equities, buy bonds too! Don't just buy SG equites or bonds, go global! Don't just look at equities or bonds, buy some properties to get some rental returns! How about annuities? Or FD? Or even some hedging tools? One cashflow pipe get stuck, still have many others that keep the cash flowing. And do remember to keep lots of cash to hold through the tough times, and buy more assets when they are cheap.

To invest full time, I think you need 2 things just to start.

1. You need to have reasonable AUM size. That aside, keep minimum 12 months of monthly expenses aside in a seperate bank account.
2. You need to have many years of track record of doing well from the stock mkt. The money made over the years should be through sound and low risk strategies and not some big fluke shots.

think safest is to work till u hand in IC.
if too kiasu or kiasi, juz guai guain stay in the rat race

(11-03-2015, 04:39 PM)morten Wrote: To invest full time, I think you need 2 things just to start.

1. You need to have reasonable AUM size. That aside, keep minimum 12 months of monthly expenses aside in a seperate bank account.
2. You need to have many years of track record of doing well from the stock mkt. The money made over the years should be through sound and low risk strategies and not some big fluke shots.

(10-03-2015, 10:39 PM)funman168 Wrote: thanks for all ur kind advice.
feel very unhappy although i am making abt $100k/yr from my job
wld rather led a simple lifestyle than be forever trap in society expectations.

Why be unhappy when you can choose to be happy. A job is only but a job. Treat it too seriously, you will hit the wall plus your nuts hitting the other wall. Work on the job as per the job requirements.

Happy or unhappy, life goes on. Like yourself, I clock over 100k pa. Sometimes, I also wonder what on earth am i doing with my life. Tried to persuade bosses to do the right thing and end at in their bad books. All the emotions and unhappiness. End up, I asked myself if i should even do that.... I realised "hell no" and that I'm not even a shareholder. Why give a d.a.m.n. cos we are all paid to something and that is the job. We aren't paid to be upset, dissatisfied or unhappy. Let the shareholders jump on the management.

Even though I made them money, they never rewarded me much. But, I'm thankful still cos they pay my salary on time and i still have the time to look at stock markets. For many bros, no time even to read vb and study markets. If anything we could learn from a job, that must be the bosses' mistakes and that we will be able to put the lessons learnt to better use next time.

Once I was sharing with a bro that if we really want a simple life, even a 500k portfolio with 5% dividend yield should be good enough for a permanent retirement in vietnam, myanmar or one of the SEA countries. But.... it all depends on what we want.

(11-03-2015, 09:04 PM)vesfreq Wrote:

(10-03-2015, 10:39 PM)funman168 Wrote: thanks for all ur kind advice.
feel very unhappy although i am making abt $100k/yr from my job
wld rather led a simple lifestyle than be forever trap in society expectations.

Why be unhappy when you can choose to be happy. A job is only but a job. Treat it too seriously, you will hit the wall plus your nuts hitting the other wall. Work on the job as per the job requirements.

Happy or unhappy, life goes on. Like yourself, I clock over 100k pa. Sometimes, I also wonder what on earth am i doing with my life. Tried to persuade bosses to do the right thing and end at in their bad books. All the emotions and unhappiness. End up, I asked myself if i should even do that.... I realised "hell no" and that I'm not even a shareholder. Why give a d.a.m.n. cos we are all paid to something and that is the job. We aren't paid to be upset, dissatisfied or unhappy. Let the shareholders jump on the management.

Even though I made them money, they never rewarded me much. But, I'm thankful still cos they pay my salary on time and i still have the time to look at stock markets. For many bros, no time even to read vb and study markets. If anything we could learn from a job, that must be the bosses' mistakes and that we will be able to put the lessons learnt to better use next time.

Once I was sharing with a bro that if we really want a simple life, even a 500k portfolio with 5% dividend yield should be good enough for a permanent retirement in vietnam, myanmar or one of the SEA countries. But.... it all depends on what we want.

When i was working, I hate office politics very much. Work wise I always put in more than 100 %. But it was not important. Office politics always get me into the bad book of the boss in the end. So I only last 3 to 5 years in a job. Me think at that time a char kway teow hawker may lead a happier life than me. Almost become one.
It is not that I don't understand the importance of office politics. It is just not in me to get involved. To put on a mask I feel very miserable. Me just have to be myself at all time if possible.
Another words I just a natural loner. Accepted that I am like that even when I am in a crowd.
So why you are not happy? 10:1 is due to office politics is my guess.

Hi NTL, thanks for remembering me.

The process of becoming a FT investor is not easy. But once you are there, you would probably have a lot of free time on your hands. And the real issue then would be how to utilise the free time. In my case, I had a rude shock when I cut down on my work, only to have those excess days filled up with household chores, like fetching kids here and there, doing marketing, becoming the diy man at home. Ended up I had a burn out during the time when I had cut down my work, rather than when I was working long hours.

As the title Investment for a living goes, I agree with most forumers that emergency funds of 1-2 years are necessary so as not to force liquidate the investment portfolio should an urgent need for funds arise. In addition, get insured adequately for the whole family, buy the highest shield policy with the riders, such that in the event of hospitalisations, there will not be a need to use the emergency funds for the medical bills.

Stay healthy as a family. Wealth without health doesn't make much sense.

Now, with the above in mind, imo, the next question to ask ourselves, is what would be the aim of this "Investment for a living"?

is it just to get by day after day using our passive incomes derived from our investments such that we can keep up with inflations, or is there a desire to get rich?

If the former is the case, then it is easier to plan. Getting rich out of this is not likely.

If the latter is the case or if the answer is unsure, then it becomes actually 2 portfolios ie one portfolio providing the day to day income(this portfolio might increase in value over time, but the dividends are usually just expected to keep up with inflation or maybe a bit more than inflation) and the other portfolio doing the compoundation work to increase wealth.

I think being employed provides the financial and psychological security for one, when he might attempt investing for a living and he should not give employment up, until he is confident of replacing this emloyment with his investment income. Even if his investment income can replace this employment income, it doesn't mean he should give up working though he does have a choice then to give his boss the sack should he decides to. As one climbs the working ladder and gets more senior, usually there might be more perks, like more leave, possibility to delegate work to subordinates etc, all these actually free up time and there might be no need to resign just because the investment income says so. Of course, the key thing is still to be happy in the job.

(11-03-2015, 10:20 PM)paullow Wrote: In my case, I had a rude shock when I cut down on my work, only to have those excess days filled up with household chores, like fetching kids here and there, doing marketing, becoming the diy man at home. Ended up I had a burn out during the time when I had cut down my work, rather than when I was working long hours.

I empathize with you. Man is not wired to do the above full time.